NON-strategic,but I know that's what you meant
The Germans never did match the Mosquito did they. I saw a "helmet cam" video of the one you've got down there flying over Auckland harbour recently. What a sight and sound.
Steve
Ar 234
Ju88 is Luftwaffe's Mosquito
- Thread starter wiking85
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Ar 234
- Thread starter
- #22
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Considering the HE111 cost more to make, more manhours, more raw materials, had less range, less versatility, was slower, and was heavier for the same bomb load (externally the Ju88 actually carried more at higher speeds too), there is no way that the He111 was in any way a preferable choice to the Ju88.
And the diving kept causing damage to the airframe, so it was deleted from the Ju88 by 1941 as part of its capabilities and stopped diving attacks during the BoB. So from mid-1940 on it was a level bomber anyway and wasn't that effective as a dive bomber even when it tried, so why no just skip that step, keep the Ju88 lighter and not delays its introduction 6 months, which kept the Do17 in production and service far longer than intended or it should have been. The the weight increase from the dive requirement also caused major production problems, because it necessitated more advanced landing gear that screwed up production until 1940, pretty much meaning that nearly 5 months of production was lost because of that addition to the design.
So eliminate the dive requirement and about 1 years worth of production is added to the Ju88 by early 1940 over historical production.
And the diving kept causing damage to the airframe, so it was deleted from the Ju88 by 1941 as part of its capabilities and stopped diving attacks during the BoB. So from mid-1940 on it was a level bomber anyway and wasn't that effective as a dive bomber even when it tried, so why no just skip that step, keep the Ju88 lighter and not delays its introduction 6 months, which kept the Do17 in production and service far longer than intended or it should have been. The the weight increase from the dive requirement also caused major production problems, because it necessitated more advanced landing gear that screwed up production until 1940, pretty much meaning that nearly 5 months of production was lost because of that addition to the design.
So eliminate the dive requirement and about 1 years worth of production is added to the Ju88 by early 1940 over historical production.
DonL
Banned
FW 187.
I knew many in this forum will say DonL is crazy or a crackpot, but I believe very hard that with the FW 187 in service, the FW 187 had smashed some myths about the untouchable Moussie in terms of speed and interception.
With a FW 187 in service the Mossie didn't became this mythical, that's my opinion.
- Thread starter
- #24
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Absolutely without question it would have. Especially when the higher powered DB605s came online, though the BMW801 or DB603 might have been plenty.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Where are you getting that price information?
Price data for 1941 for some German aircraft types, via Olaf Groehlers GdLK, 1910-1980:
Without engine / with engine, in Reichsmarks (RM)
Bf 109E : 58 000 / 85 970
Bf 110C : 155 800 / 210 140
He 111H : 203 900 / 265 650
Ju 88A : 245 200 / 306 950
Ju 87B : 100 300 / 131 175
Ju 52 : 125 800 / 163 000
Do 17 : 185 500 / 235 00
Might as well include the Fw-187 too. Focke-Wulf stated a production cost of RM 140,000.
Price data for 1941 for some German aircraft types, via Olaf Groehlers GdLK, 1910-1980:
Without engine / with engine, in Reichsmarks (RM)
Bf 109E : 58 000 / 85 970
Bf 110C : 155 800 / 210 140
He 111H : 203 900 / 265 650
Ju 88A : 245 200 / 306 950
Ju 87B : 100 300 / 131 175
Ju 52 : 125 800 / 163 000
Do 17 : 185 500 / 235 00
Might as well include the Fw-187 too. Focke-Wulf stated a production cost of RM 140,000.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #26
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
By cost I meant materials and manhours. The cost went down as the company paid off the cost of the special tools for it and labor costs went down with the introduction of slave labor.
The 88A-4 using bomb bay as tank can load ~2,600 kg of fuel with this can load 1,500 kg of bombs under the wings (6x250).
The 111H-16 using drop tanks can load ~2,555 kg of fuel with this can load 1,500 kg of bombs in the bomb bay (6x250) probably can also load 1,600 kg of bombs (32x50)
p.s. for clear the 32x50 load is alternative to 6x250 load
The 111H-16 using drop tanks can load ~2,555 kg of fuel with this can load 1,500 kg of bombs in the bomb bay (6x250) probably can also load 1,600 kg of bombs (32x50)
p.s. for clear the 32x50 load is alternative to 6x250 load
Last edited:
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Slave labor in 1941 Germany?
Perhaps you were thinking of the Soviet Union where slave labor was routinely employed from 1920 onward (per Solzhenitsyn).
Perhaps you were thinking of the Soviet Union where slave labor was routinely employed from 1920 onward (per Solzhenitsyn).
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
Really?
I thought there was extensive use of the Ju 88 as a dive bomber during the attacks on Russia in '41 '42.
I could have sworn I've seen film of it, no?
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
Hmmm, why is a comment about nazi activities always 'answered' by a comment about what went on in Stalin's Russia, talk about besides the point.
Last I read the Todt organisation could coerce certain people to work (pre-war).
Perhaps someone has numbers?
Wiki mentions between '38 '40 some 1.75 million German people 'conscripted' in this way.
- Thread starter
- #31
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Polish POWs were working in the German aircraft industry from 1939-40 on. It only got worse as French, Dutch, Belgian, and later Soviet POWS showed up and culminated in Jewish and concentration camp labor predominating in 1944.
They weren't AFAIK. The Ju88 bombed horizontally only at that point.
Last edited:
I'm not counting jets particularly ones that arrived too few and too late to make the slightest difference.
The Fw 187 may well have caught the Mosquito but it was hardly a comparable aircraft.
Steve
The Ju 88 A-4 in Rüstzustand C (both bomb bays used for fuel) carried 2620 kg of fuel and was permitted to carry 6x 250 kg bombs. With 100 kg fuel and several external bomb carriers removed it was permitted to carry a single 1800 kg bomb. Both variations weighted ~13750 kg
The He 111 H-16 with full internal tanks (2555 kg) was permitted to carry 3x 250 kg + 20x 50 kg bombs for 1750 kg, with slightly reduced internal fuel (2425 kg) it was permitted to carry 2t. With internal bombbayb used for fuel (3175kg) it could carry 1t. Each variation weighted about 14000 kg.
Both aircraft could carry more/heavier bombs but had to reduce fuel accordingly.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
That's rather obvious. Fw-187 was a day fighter. Mosquito was a light bomber.
Me-210C / Me-410A light bomber was Germany's equivalent to the Mosquito. Entered service about the same time too.
Me-210C / Me-410A light bomber was Germany's equivalent to the Mosquito. Entered service about the same time too.
Well I am counting them so
Me 410s were also pretty successful in the interdiction role even if they were a bit slower than a Mosquito and could carry only a lighter load.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
That worked ok during 1943 when P-47s lacked range to reach central Germany and P-51s had yet to appear.
Well I am counting them so
Well at least you've picked a bomber which is a legitimate comparison with the Mosquito. It's maximum load was significantly lower.
The fact that you have gone for a jet that entered limited service,whilst others have chosen a day fighter that never even entered production (Fw 187) speaks volumes for the de Havilland Mosquito
The Me 210/410 is not a good comparison either. The Mosquito was a bomber from its conception whereas noone seems to have been sure what role the Me 210/410 was going to carry out. It certainly wasn't much of a bomber.
The real effort to build an aircraft to match at least some aspects of the Mosquito's performance would be the Ta 154 and the less said about that the better
Cheers
Steve
Entnahmebehälter = engine feed tank = the tank the engine gets it's fuel from. Tragflächenmittelteil = Wing mid section.
AFAIR the He 111 had aux tanks in the outer wing section and the main (feed) tanks between engine and the mid win section.
