Junkers Ju 322 Mammut transport glider

[Vahe Demirjian]

Everyone's familiar with the Messerschmitt Me 321 Gigant glider transport, but most don't think too much about the unsuccessful Junkers Ju 322 Mammut glider. I found a number of little-noticed photos of the Ju 322 at the Plane-Encyclopedia entry for the Ju 322 and they are provided here.

 

[GrumpyOldCrewChief]

Why would anyone in their right mind send the (undoubted) world leader in metal A/C design off on the design of an all-wood airframe? Strategic material considerations were real, but why pair Junkers and wood? Still bothers me...

 

[pbehn]

What was the thinking behind these? A military glider is normally a single use item, that's a big item to use once.

 

[GrumpyOldCrewChief]

There were several levels, and different sets of considerations involved at the time. Large, heavy-lift transport A/C simply did not exist, but the need to quickly develop an air-borne way to get heavy machinery - i.e. tanks and self-propelled guns - across the English Channel, did exist. Gliders were perceived as cheaper, more quickly developed and less risky. The need to get big things on target quickly was the driving idea. Another outgrowth of the "Blitzkrieg" mindset, carried to a redonkulous degree.

 

[Gnomey]

Good shots!

 

[pbehn]

There were several levels, and different sets of considerations involved at the time. Large, heavy-lift transport A/C simply did not exist, but the need to quickly develop an air-borne way to get heavy machinery - i.e. tanks and self-propelled guns - across the English Channel, did exist. Gliders were perceived as cheaper, more quickly developed and less risky. The need to get big things on target quickly was the driving idea. Another outgrowth of the "Blitzkrieg" mindset, carried to a redonkulous degree.

I just don't get what they could be used for, you would need a completely controlled air space and a good landing area, in which case you don't actually need to fly in "stuff" you can just put it on a truck train or boat.

 

[GrumpyOldCrewChief]

Yes, one of the conditions presupposed was air superiority, or enough surprise as to realize that effect locally, but an over-riding consideration was the speed with which such heavy war machines could be delivered. The costs of the equipment - in this case the gliders - would be considered very secondary to winning the battle they are committed to. Crossing any bodies of water wider than a decent river posed large problems. The issue of surface transport loomed large in any battle plan. To get an idea of this - but going the other direction, look at the Allied D-Day efforts. The Allies just gave up on air transport of objects over a certain weight and/or size, because it just was not practical, given the parameters of technology available, development time required, and sheer logistical practicality. The German High Command desired the delivery of medium tanks by air, in furthering the overall concept of the overwhelming surprise attack. Shows how steep the learning curve can be, in unknown realms of design!

 

[pbehn]

Yes, one of the conditions presupposed was air superiority, or enough surprise as to realize that effect locally, but an over-riding consideration was the speed with which such heavy war machines could be delivered. The costs of the equipment - in this case the gliders - would be considered very secondary to winning the battle they are committed to. Crossing any bodies of water wider than a decent river posed large problems. The issue of surface transport loomed large in any battle plan. To get an idea of this - but going the other direction, look at the Allied D-Day efforts. The Allies just gave up on air transport of objects over a certain weight and/or size, because it just was not practical, given the parameters of technology available, development time required, and sheer logistical practicality. The German High Command desired the delivery of medium tanks by air, in furthering the overall concept of the overwhelming surprise attack. Shows how steep the learning curve can be, in unknown realms of design!

I understand that, but some of these required 2 He111s to tow them, you could lose two bombers a huge glider and a tank with all their crews to a single gun or plane.

 

[GrumpyOldCrewChief]

Yes, that is exactly true. Some will be lost, both to enemy action, and accidents. But it was only a small part of the calculations used to determine the need and use of these particular machines. Overall, winning the particular battle these weapons were committed to was more important than any "incidental" losses. The logic and reason you are applying are not the same logic and reason that were applied in developing these items. Depending on who sets the parameters, the calculus of war can be very different.

 

[fubar57]

In the book "German Gliders of World War 2" it says that the glider would have had a crew of six: pilot, co-pilot, 3 gunners (3 MG 15s)....... and priest? It would have carried 140 troops. The opening sentence sets the tone...."The Ju 322 proved to be a failure in every respect...." Further down, Generalluftzeugmeister Ernst Udet came for an inspection of the "Mammoth" and......"said what many experts had already suspected. "This aircraft will never fly."" The coverage continues with the trials and tribulation of building it to its one attempt at flight

 

[GrumpyOldCrewChief]

I just love the report that the first attempt at loading the aircraft with a tracked vehicle ended with said vehicle crashing through the floor, and nearly destroying the abbreviated nose of the aircraft!

 

[pbehn]

In the book "German Gliders of World War 2" it says that the glider would have had a crew of six: pilot, co-pilot, 3 gunners (3 MG 15s)....... and priest? It would have carried 140 troops. The opening sentence sets the tone...."The Ju 322 proved to be a failure in every respect...." Further down, Generalluftzeugmeister Ernst Udet came for an inspection of the "Mammoth" and......"said what many experts had already suspected. "This aircraft will never fly."" The coverage continues with the trials and tribulation of building it to its one attempt at flight

An inability to fly is surely just a lack of He111s? Put another 6 on the job and lift it there?

 

[fubar57]

All the wood that was delivered was moldy. Someone else will probably understand this part..."The first wing spar, which was supposed to carry a 1.8-fold load, broke with a load of 0.9, the second at 1.1! The droppable starting cart bounced so high that it endangered the glider"

 

[pbehn]

All the wood that was delivered was moldy. Someone else will probably understand this part..."The first wing spar, which was supposed to carry a 1.8-fold load, broke with a load of 0.9, the second at 1.1! The droppable starting cart bounced so high that it endangered the glider"

From what I read about the Mosquito quality assurance is difficult with wood, at its best it is great at its worst it is not good at all, but you don't make it, you cut it out of a forest. There were all sorts of testing for moisture and density etc. The last part I think is like the dropping of bouncing bombs, the "cart" bouncing up and almost hitting the tail.