Kawasaki making something else instead of Ki-45?

[tomo pauk]

Ki-45 was a 2-engined fighter in service at IJA. It possessed neither firepower, range nor performance advantage over what 'West' was doing (even when compared with widely available stuff powered by 1 engine), while still requiring, for Japan, a big investment of material, that could possibly go somewhere else. 1700 examples were made.
So what might IJA want for Kawaskai to make for them instead? Another type of fighter (whether something historical or not), a perhaps a bomber? Something historically plausible, that uses Japanese bits & pieces (engines, guns etc), in quantities that respect the 'zero sum' game more or less. Should be entering the service by Autumn of 1941, as the historical Ki-45 did.

 

[Shinpachi]

I think what IJA wanted Kawasaki was nothing different from that for Nakajima as both companies had been good competitors in the development/production of better fighters/bombers for IJA since the world war 1.

 

[ThomasP]

For the time period, maybe start gearing up for production of the A6M as soon as possible. Compared to the Ki-45 the A6M had better range and maneuverability, comparable armament and speed (I think).

Kawasaki building the A6M would take some of the load off of Mitsubishi, and allow Mitsubishi to put more resources into developing their improved A6M and follow on A7M. Or the J2M. Maybe??

 

[GrauGeist]

The KI-45 was in keeping with the worldview idea of "heavy fighter" in the 1930's. When it was first introduced, it had impressive speed and range.
The KI-45 was actually better than the Nakajima's J1N, too.

Mitsubishi's KI-46 was very successful in it's early role and would have been eclipsed by the KI-70.

 

[tomo pauk]

For the time period, maybe start gearing up for production of the A6M as soon as possible. Compared to the Ki-45 the A6M had better range and maneuverability, comparable armament and speed (I think).

Kawasaki building the A6M would take some of the load off of Mitsubishi, and allow Mitsubishi to put more resources into developing their improved A6M and follow on A7M. Or the J2M. Maybe??

IJA might throw a fit if someone suggested making the IJN's aircraft for them... Perhaps have Kawasaki making the Ki-43 for the IJA (even if it has some disadvantages vs. Zero).

The KI-45 was in keeping with the worldview idea of "heavy fighter" in the 1930's. When it was first introduced, it had impressive speed and range.
The KI-45 was actually better than the Nakajima's J1N, too.

Ki-45 was doing 340 mph in late 1941. Range was no better than what Ki-43 or Zero had. Or even the P-40 with a drop tank.
It didn't take a lot to be better than the J1N, that in 1944 was sporting performance figures from 1940.

Mitsubishi's KI-46 was very successful in it's early role and would have been eclipsed by the KI-70.

Yes, me likes Ki-46 very much

 

[Dimlee]

To continue to develop Ki-48, perhaps.

 

[tomo pauk]

To continue to develop Ki-48, perhaps.

Ki-48 was certainly in need of further development, in bomb & fuel load, performance, protection, defensive firepower...
Perhaps go with the Ki-46 equivalent, but as a bomber instead of a recon machine? Both Ki-45 and Ki-46 were somewhat smaller than Ki-48, powered by similar HP (until the Ki-46 gotten the water-injected Kinseis for a significant performance boost; ditto for the still-born Ki-96).

Another suggestion - Ki-60 designed around the Kinsei instead around the DB 601? Granted, it will need to have a better/faster development cycle so it can be made in numbers from summer of 1941 on.

 

[tonycat77]

After BoB, IJA realizes a heavy fighter is a dead end and cuts production, Kawasaki retools for ki-46 or more Ki-61s, probably with radials since they have some lying around from the Ki-45 program.

 

[tomo pauk]

After BoB, IJA realizes a heavy fighter is a dead end and cuts production, Kawasaki retools for ki-46 or more Ki-61s, probably with radials since they have some lying around from the Ki-45 program.

Radial-engined aircraft for sure. Not making 1700 Ki-45s leaves 3400 engines to play with. By late 1941, Zuisei was making power figures comparable to the Sakae (no wonder, technology, displacement, size, weight and fuel used was as close as possible, probably even more close than it was the case with early Merlins and V-1710s).
Without the Ki-45 inn the picture, Mitsubishi is free to make more Kinseis, that make better power, especially as the war drags on. Shove those on Kawasaki-produced Ki-43s, or Ki-60s, or Ki-61s?

 

[GreenKnight121]

Mitsubishi's KI-46 was very successful in it's early role and would have been eclipsed by the KI-70.

Lets get this historically correct...
"Mitsubishi's KI-46 was very successful in it's early role and was supposed to have been eclipsed by the KI-70, but that type's prototype had poorer performance than the KI-46 II, and the KI-70 was canceled."

 

[GrauGeist]

Perhaps my phrasing was wrong, but many thanks for your impeccable historical scrutiny.

In the future, I shall have you proofread my posts for your valuable input.

 

[Just Schmidt]

I'd say don't.

Though the Ki-45 wasn't useful as an escort fighter, I do believe that it mirrored the Bf 110 in being a good platform for night fighting (though it could have benefitted from a radar program comparable to most other major combatants), fighter bomber and maritime attack against smaller vessels. I don't see any other Japanese type - operational or not - besting it here in the historical time-frame.

It may be possible (and even advisable) for Mitsubishi to produce more of a better engine, but as is, I can't imagine a better use for the three and a half thousand engines that powered the actual Ki-45's. Any single engine fighter using these engines would be mediocre at best, and we'd need 1700 more pilots.

In a what if everything can of course be tweaked, but without serious deviations from what was, I do find the Toroy to be about the best that could be achieved.

 

[tomo pauk]

Though the Ki-45 wasn't useful as an escort fighter, I do believe that it mirrored the Bf 110 in being a good platform for night fighting (though it could have benefitted from a radar program comparable to most other major combatants), fighter bomber and maritime attack against smaller vessels. I don't see any other Japanese type - operational or not - besting it here in the historical time-frame.

Japanese, or at least their Army air service, were not in the need for night fighters until late 1944? Lack of the radar certainly makes any Japanese NF severely under-performing in it's task. As a fighter bomber - looks like there were no bombs or rockets carried ever? Just one cannon (neither of the types installed in the nose were great) for two engines seems like a waste for me*. Other people - including Japanese - used just one engine on a fighter that carried 2 cannons in 1941-43 (or 1, or 4 cannons in Europe). A smaller vessel (from a 1500-2000 t destroyer down?) was probably more afraid of 6 gun HMG battery on a P-40 than it will be afraid of a Ki-45.

* late in the war, it carried another pair of cannons in a 'schreage musik' layout

tl;dr: I'd disagree that Ki-45 was that good in anything. Hence this thread

It may be possible (and even advisable) for Mitsubishi to produce more of a better engine, but as is, I can't imagine a better use for the three and a half thousand engines that powered the actual Ki-45's. Any single engine fighter using these engines would be mediocre at best, and we'd need 1700 more pilots.

Without the need for 3400 Zuiseis, Mitsubishi can make more Kinseis and/or Kaseis. Granted, not at 1:1 ratio, but probably 3000 more Kinseis? A Kinsei can probably fit on the Ki-43 (= 350-360 mph?), it certainly can fit on the Ki-61 or Ki-44, and it might be possible to fit it on the Ki-60.
A Kinsei-powered Ki-61 leads to the type being much more reliable in service, and more of them means less of pilot wastage vs. the pilots flying a Ki-43. Similar with Ki-44+Kinsei vs. Ki-43. Less wastage = more pilots available, and pilots with greater experience to boot.
A nod to using the Ki-60 as the base is that it was a small aircraft, wing area was comparable to the Ki-44. It might even work with Zuisei, that had about the same power as the Sakae in 1941-44; although I'd try to slap the Kinsei on it.

In a what if everything can of course be tweaked, but without serious deviations from what was, I do find the Toroy to be about the best that could be achieved.

It might be interesting if Kawasaki went to a small, 1-seat 2-engined fighter. Talk wing size as on the Whirlwind (250 sq ft wing instead of a 340 sq ft), with two cannons (imperfect as the were) + two HMGs in the nose? Not having to fiddle with burried radiators leaves a lot of space for fuel tanks in the wings. A drop tank facility that can also accept bombs?

 

[Conslaw]

Perhaps my phrasing was wrong, but many thanks for your impeccable historical scrutiny.

In the future, I shall have you proofread my posts for your valuable input.

Ki-45 was a 2-engined fighter in service at IJA. It possessed neither firepower, range nor performance advantage over what 'West' was doing (even when compared with widely available stuff powered by 1 engine), while still requiring, for Japan, a big investment of material, that could possibly go somewhere else. 1700 examples were made.
So what might IJA want for Kawaskai to make for them instead? Another type of fighter (whether something historical or not), a perhaps a bomber? Something historically plausible, that uses Japanese bits & pieces (engines, guns etc), in quantities that respect the 'zero sum' game more or less. Should be entering the service by Autumn of 1941, as the historical Ki-45 did.

We had a thread focused on the translated diary of a Ki-45 "Nick" pilot, from the spring of 1945 (I can't find the thread to link it.). I thought it was strange that this pilot was just flying around in VERY hostile airspace in a plane that was about 50 mph slower than an F6F-5.

 

[GrauGeist]

We had a thread focused on the translated diary of a Ki-45 "Nick" pilot, from the spring of 1945 (I can't find the thread to link it.). I thought it was strange that this pilot was just flying around in VERY hostile airspace in a plane that was about 50 mph slower than an F6F-5.

The KI-45 follows a path that's close to the Bf110's.

It's strength turned out to be as a night-fighter and did inflict quite a few losses against B-29s.

 

[tonycat77]

My biggest beef with the Ki-45 is the pathetic armament.
a single 20mm for a heavy fighter, 2 .50s in 1942?!
Also i don't know if it's realistic, but the load limit seems horrible too, can't pull more than 5gs with structural damage in IL-2 pacific fighters, makes it impossible to dogfight asides from the ocasional deflection shot.

It might be interesting if Kawasaki went to a small, 1-seat 2-engined fighter. Talk wing size as on the Whirlwind (250 sq ft wing instead of a 340 sq ft), with two cannons (imperfect as the were) + two HMGs in the nose? Not having to fiddle with burried radiators leaves a lot of space for fuel tanks in the wings. A drop tank facility that can also accept bombs?

Something like a Beaufighter but without a useless 2nd rear seat, oh wait, they did had that:

Got axed in 1943 because there was no rear gunner
Armament was still very bad though, 2x20mm and a 37mm cannon which was probably not automatic, i'd add 4x20mm instead in the nose or 2x30mms and 2x20mms, should be a horrible nightmare against any bomber or pt boat.

 

[tomo pauk]

Something like a Beaufighter but without a useless 2nd rear seat, oh wait, they did had that:
Got axed in 1943 because there was no rear gunner
Armament was still very bad though, 2x20mm and a 37mm cannon which was probably not automatic, i'd add 4x20mm instead in the nose or 2x30mms and 2x20mms, should be a horrible nightmare against any bomber or pt boat.

Ki-96 sported the, say, 3rd generation of Kinsei (Ha-112-II in army parlance) engine family, that was available in late 1943 and featured a host of improvements that pushed engine power by a handsome percentage, at all altitudes. No such luck for the earlier 24 months of the Pacific war the Ki-45 was used in.
If we want a Kinsei-powered fighter, an 1-engined type might cut it? For better or worse, Japanese were waiting until 1945 to do such a thing, instead of making it already in 1940/41. Granted, nothing prevented the Army to order a fighter with the big (for the time) Kasei in the nose by 1939...

Japanese 37mm gun in question was equivalent of the M4 37mm gun as found on P-39s. Automatic (there is no person loading it; fires burst), but same as the US cannon it was with low MV and low RoF.

 

[GrauGeist]

The twin that held promise, was Mitsubishi's KI-83. Powered by two Ha112 engines, it had great performance.

But like most promising Axis aircraft, it appeared too late. It is possible it may have appeared sooner, but as with many other manufacturers, bombing caused setbacks and delays.

 

[tomo pauk]

The twin that held promise, was Mitsubishi's KI-83. Powered by two Ha112 engines, it had great performance.

Ki-83 was powered by Ha-43 engines, a.k.a Ha-211
Interesting engines in their own right, not only due to extensive experimentation with 2-stage superchargers (possibly the only 2-stage supercharged engines that actually flew in ww2 Japan?), as well as with turboes added.

 

[GrauGeist]

Ki-83 was powered by Ha-43 engines, a.k.a Ha-211

Oh boy, talk about dyslexia!

That was indeed, intended to read: "Ha-211"