Kobe Bryant Crash

[vikingBerserker]

Ok I just read an article about the crash: Helicopter company in Kobe Bryant crash not certified to fly in poor visibility: Reports

It states that company was not certified to fly in poor visibility, but the pilot and aircraft was. Is this rating held by the company itself and not the pilots????

 

[Admiral Beez]

This just seems so bloody avoidable and senseless. If I'm a billionaire celebrity I'm not scrimping on my safety, and I'd be demanding top grade pilots with both top drawer experience AND a carrier with clearance and drilled for IFR/IMC.

That doesn't guarantee safety of course. Here in Canada we've had helicopters crash transiting between Newfoundland and offshoring drilling platforms, but those are almost always mechanical issues. When they have to (often they wait for weather to clear) those oil platform pilots fly in the soupiest fog the Grand Banks can create. Those are the guys you want flying your celebrity copter. Any ex-RCN CH-124 pilot would be tops in my books too.

But damn it guy, just climb!

 

[davparlr]

I've heard several times that the rate of decent at time of crash was 4000 to 5000 f/min. If this is true it is very confusing. In the soup looking around for visual references, looking inside to check instruments, could be vertigo, been there, done that. Glad I had a copilot. Does these types of commercial aircraft have any type of recorders aboard?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I've heard several times that the rate of decent at time of crash was 4000 to 5000 f/min. If this is true it is very confusing. In the soup looking around for visual references, looking inside to check instruments, could be vertigo, been there, done that. Glad I had a copilot. Does these types of commercial aircraft have any type of recorders aboard?

According to his ADS-B data his rate of descent was 4864 feet per minute.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

 

[mikewint]

could be vertigo,

We went through this before in another crash but don't remember the exact circumstances possibly JFK Jr's crash into the ocean. I know nothing definitive about this accident but do understand vertigo. It takes a highly trained person to trust a gauge (which do malfunction) when there are no visual references and every sensory input you have is screaming that you are climbing, diving, etc. Unfortunately habit kicks in and you trust your senses.
I would strongly suspect that this is the cause of this crash. White above, below, and to all sides, with no sense of up or down...vertigo and panic set in

 

[davparlr]

According to his ADS-B data his rate of descent was 4864 feet per minute.

That's a high rate of descent for any type of normal flight especially in limited visibility. I once got that in the C-141, but I was just showing off. Center asked for expedited descent to low altitude so I thought that it was a good time to see what the plane could do. I pulled the throttles to idle and deployed the spoilers and slowed to below 200kts indicated then lowered the nose and accelerated to 250 kts (the limit below 10k ft). We were going down like a rock. That's not what you would want to do at low altitude in fog. Something else seems to be at work here. Vertigo could have caused that.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

It states that company was not certified to fly in poor visibility, but the pilot and aircraft was. Is this rating held by the company and not the pilots?

Both. When operating under FAR Part 135 (Air Taxi) rules, the aircraft, the pilots, and the division of the company operating the aircraft have to be certified for IFR under the Operations Specifications issued to that company by the FAA. These "ops specs" define precisely what the company and its pilots can and cannot do and under what circumstances. The ops specs for a commuter airline operating several aircraft types can be thicker than a King James Bible, and when you go for your FAA checkride you WILL be quizzed extensively on it.
For example, at the commuter I flew for, operating an aircraft that was single pilot authorized, there were two classes of captains. Junior captains had to fly with a First Officer at all times, regardless of the type of operation. Senior captains who had taken a separate additional checkride with the FAA could fly single pilot on non-revenue flights, such as ferrying, maintenance test, or training. This was all spelled out in our Ops Specs.
Back in the day, a 500 hour pilot could fly VFR charters under the air taxi rules, and a lot of pilots built time that way, but I believe that loophole has been plugged. (As well it should!) It led to lots of Kobe-style scud running, with consequences to match.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[vikingBerserker]

Thanks Wes!

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Something else seems to be at work here. Vertigo could have caused that.

Panic in the passenger cabin has turned more than one hairy situation into a tragedy. In IMC the "seat of the pants" sensations accompanying that ADS-B profile would have been unsettling, to say the least, especially to the uninitiated.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That's a high rate of descent for any type of normal flight especially in limited visibility. I once got that in the C-141, but I was just showing off. Center asked for expedited descent to low altitude so I thought that it was a good time to see what the plane could do. I pulled the throttles to idle and deployed the spoilers and slowed to below 200kts indicated then lowered the nose and accelerated to 250 kts (the limit below 10k ft). We were going down like a rock. That's not what you would want to do at low altitude in fog. Something else seems to be at work here. Vertigo could have caused that.

I would not be surprised if it was spatial disorientation. His mind and inner ear telling him he was climbing or wings level, but was in-fact in a dive.

I experienced that once after going IMC. We were in-fact wings level, but I thought we were inverted, and in a dive.

Trust your instruments...

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I experienced that once after going IMC. We were in-fact wings level, but I thought we were inverted, and in a dive.

Happened to me in my pre-instrument days in a T34 with old tired gyros that precessed at a phenomenal rate. Flew inadvertently into a cloud on a moonless night and suddenly realized my rotating beacon was reflecting back at me on all sides. Tried to fly the gages, but got befuddled and wound up in a graveyard spiral where nothing seemed to make any sense and "needle-ball-airspeed" seemingly refused to play by the rules. Came out of the bottom of the clouds at <1000 feet MSL in a 200+ Kt downward spiral and almost pulled "a JFK Jr", but thanks to a 9G airplane, didn't. I saw the reflections of my nav lights in the water before I got the descent stopped, and the G meter recorded 6+. Life is a wonderful thing.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[Husky]

Just a thought/question for the actual pilots here. Perhaps I'm looking at this too simplisticly but it seems if you get into heavy fog and you know the highest mountain in the immediate area is say 2500 feet wouldn't the safest thing to do be get up abouve that altitude and fly in the direction of the nearest airport reporting clear skies?

Almost correct, in my view; 1st, transition to instrument flight safely minimizing abrupt turns. 2nd, adjust controls for a maximum climb attitude and airspeed while begining turns away from obstacles and make your EMER IIMC call to ATC. 3rd; turn away from the highest obstacle(s) in your immediate flight path maintaining a positive climb. 4th; climb to at least minimum vectoring altitude for your airport of destination. 5th; set up your systems and instruments for the at least an ILS with preferably a PAR back-up...and, and go have few cigarettes.

As well, on shit weather days a few mental plans and the cockpit set up with IAPs at the ready just for event of such.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

at least an ILS with preferably a PAR backup...

They still have Precision Approach Radar?? Where? I thought those went away decades ago. They used to be a lot of fun. Used to go out to the GCA trailer and play cards with the ACs on duty to help them stay awake through those long boring nights with no traffic. They used to beg us flying club types to go out and shoot some approaches, just to have something to do.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

...and, and go have few cigarettes.

And prepare to surrender your license to the Feds.

 

[Husky]

And prepare to surrender your license to the Feds.

I've been IIMC a handful of times, almost always under NVG's and mostly in formation flights....nothing happened to us by the Feds or host nations. But as well, I was never in a tightly congested flight area where me declaring an IIMC emergency would have disrupted traffic or cause a safety issue to other aircraft.

But, in any case, I, my crew, my passengers and aircraft would be on the ground.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I've been IIMC a handful of times, almost always under NVG's and mostly in formation flights....nothing happened to us by the Feds or host nations.

The "privileges" of operating entirely in the military sphere. As civil operators on military property, we had to keep both sides happy. But then again, we were not expected to fly "in harm's way". And NVGs were still in the future.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Happened to me in my pre-instrument days in a T34 with old tired gyros that precessed at a phenomenal rate. Flew inadvertently into a cloud on a moonless night and suddenly realized my rotating beacon was reflecting back at me on all sides. Tried to fly the gages, but got befuddled and wound up in a graveyard spiral where nothing seemed to make any sense and "needle-ball-airspeed" seemingly refused to play by the rules. Came out of the bottom of the clouds at <1000 feet MSL in a 200+ Kt downward spiral and almost pulled "a JFK Jr", but thanks to a 9G airplane, didn't. I saw the reflections of my nav lights in the water before I got the descent stopped, and the G meter recorded 6+. Life is a wonderful thing.
Cheers,
Wes

Wow. Never experienced something like that, and don't ever want to.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Yea, I'll stick to my first stall during lessons for my soiling of the flight suit.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Wow. Never experienced something like that, and don't ever want to.

Yea, I'll stick to my first stall during lessons for my soiling of the flight suit.

Once was enough for me.