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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Again, my point. And to compound this the media sucks this up.
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Again, my point. And to compound this the media sucks this up.You know and I know what a sputter and a helicopter sound like (although that sputter clip sounds like a Clerget or Oberursel rotary with a decoupe button being used to provide less than full power by intermittent ignition interruption), but we're around these things all the time. Do you really think the average American, stressed by witnessing a high profile tragedy, would be as sophisticated and accurate in their acoustic memory as you or I would be expected to be?
I don't understand why VFR certification even exists. I live in Canada, it snows for half the year, we have a lot of fog and low visibility days, but I can't get a driver's license that permits me only to drive on dry roads with clear visibility. I took my final motorcycle on-highway examination in a torrential downpour, where visibility was so poor I could hardly see the examiner's car behind me. But I now know I am trained and capable of it, and licensed to do it.The pilot was ultimately responsible for the safe operation of this flight.
With that said, the weather conditions at take off were actually VFR (1000' overcast, 4 miles visibility). Not the greatest weather but perfectly legal for the helicopter to take off. The fact that the "police grounded their helicopters" was just media sensationalism feeding the uninformed general public.
I don't understand why VFR certification even exists. I live in Canada, it snows for half the year, we have a lot of fog and low visibility days, but I can't get a driver's license that permits me only to drive on drive roads with clear visibility. I took my final motorcycle on-highway examination in a torrential downpour, where visibility was so poor I could hardly see the examiner's car behind me. But I now know I am trained and capable of it, and licensed to do it.
Why aren't all pilots required to have basic IFR and IMC certification and ongoing qualifications? Is it cost, lack of available trainers and training facilities, insurance cost? Or is IFR and IMC qualifications simply not needed if pilot's stay out of weather? But weather happens all the time.
1. Costs
2. Your average pilot is a clear, blue 22 private pilot who is going to put around the clouds within 50 miles of his home airfield. The cost associated with the risk of flying in instrument weather is not justified.
3. You are trained to make better decisions.
You are trained to look at the weather before hand, and go "Well damn, weather is a no-go. Looks like I will be flying the couch today."
I am a private pilot, and only have a VFR license. I don't fly on questionable weather days. I have the mandatory minimum hours of instrument training required to get my license, so that hopefully if I ever get into unforecasted weather, I can get myself out of trouble, but I am trained to hopefully make good aeronautical devisions, be a smart pilot, and not get into the situations.
Don't take me wrong, I would recommend all pilots getting their instrument rating, as it could save their life one day. As soon as my kids are older and I have more time and money I plan on getting my instrument rating, as well as my commercial and CFI.
I've got an instrument rating. Haven't used it in 20 years, so I'd be no better off than your average VFR pilot. It's not simply the cost of getting the rating, but of maintaining it.
As to why VFR only exists? simple, most aircraft are only VFR capable. By the time you put all the equipment in a two-place aircraft to bring it up to IFR standards, it becomes a single-place aircraft, so you need more equipment.
It's the age old conflict that afflicts nearly every field of endeavor: the freedom to participate on an amateur level vs the pressure to require a professional level performance at the entry level for reasons of safety or economic exclusion.Why aren't all pilots required to have basic IFR and IMC certification and ongoing qualifications?
I don't understand why VFR certification even exists. I live in Canada, it snows for half the year, we have a lot of fog and low visibility days, but I can't get a driver's license that permits me only to drive on dry roads with clear visibility. I took my final motorcycle on-highway examination in a torrential downpour, where visibility was so poor I could hardly see the examiner's car behind me. But I now know I am trained and capable of it, and licensed to do it.
Why aren't all pilots required to have basic IFR and IMC certification and ongoing qualifications? Is it cost, lack of available trainers and training facilities, insurance cost? Or is IFR and IMC qualifications simply not needed if pilot's stay out of weather? But weather happens all the time.
Perhaps that's where the line should be, if I'm flying passengers commercially, as a business I should be qualified for all comers. I can't imagine paying a carrier to take me someplace and carrier's pilot isn't qualified to do it.Not needed depending on the type of flying one is doing. It's assumed that VFR pilots will not go IMC (easier said than done). When you are earning your PPL you do have some training under the hood, but it's very basic. Most VFR pilots die within 30 seconds of going into IMC.
If you're flying with a commercial rating you need to be instrument rated or you're limited on how far you can fly with passengers, that regulation a result of the Buddy Holly tragedy.
Commercial pilots without instrument ratings are very rare and will not get much work. Most of the ones I know are towing gliders or crop dustersPerhaps that's where the line should be, if I'm flying passengers commercially, as a business I should be qualified for all comers. I can't imagine paying a carrier to take me someplace and carrier's pilot isn't qualified to do it.
Agreed! Back in the day, VFR-only charters (crosscountry transportation, not just local sightseeing flights) were legal, and so were single engine IFR with certain restrictions. Neither of these required ATP level pilot qualifications, and lots of scud running and fatalities ensued. My employers held a VFR charter certificate, and wanted to put me on it, but I was having none of that. They had a VFR only instructor on their certificate and were turning away customers on non-CAVU days, but thought with my instrument rating they could become an all-weather business. I told them any day they wanted to spring for a twin engine, known icing airplane and a copilot to come talk to me. End of conversation.Perhaps that's where the line should be, if I'm flying passengers commercially, as a business I should be qualified for all comers.
I think I've got my terminology wrong. By commercial pilot, I'm referring to a pilot who's undertaking commerce, or business, i.e. getting paid to transport paying customers, like Kobe Bryant and his group.Commercial pilots without instrument ratings are very rare and will not get much work. Most of the ones I know are towing gliders or crop dusters
These must be real oldtimers, as the FARs were revised, effective 1975, to require an instrument rating for a commercial license. I had a VFR-only commercial and CFI, and had to get off my lazy duff and finish up my instrument rating.Commercial pilots without instrument ratings are very rare and will not get much work. Most of the ones I know are towing gliders or crop dusters
Get with the jive, man! On demand transportation of passengers or cargo is charter. Sightseeing flights, crop dusting, glider towing, flight instructing, pipeline/powerline patrol,, dropping jumpers, aerial photography, etc, etc, are commerce too. A commercial license is needed for all of these activities.I think I've got my terminology wrong. By commercial pilot, I'm referring to a pilot who's undertaking commerce, or business, i.e. getting paid to transport paying customers
Ah ha! Insurance underwriters! You've unerringly hit the nail on the head. They, more even than the FAA, control what goes on in the air. They often require stricter standards than the FAA before they will write a policy at an affordable premium.charter outfits are now under the scrutiny of celebrities, their agents and insurance underwriters now.
These must be real oldtimers, as the FARs were revised, effective 1975, to require an instrument rating for a commercial license. I had a VFR-only commercial and CFI, and had to get off my lazy duff and finish up my instrument rating.
Cheers,
Wes
61.133 Commercial pilot privileges and limitations.
(b) Limitations.
(1) A person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category or powered-lift category rating and does not hold an instrument rating in the same category and class will be issued a commercial pilot certificate that contains the limitation, "The carriage of passengers for hire in (airplanes) (powered-lifts) on cross-country flights in excess of 50 nautical miles or at night is prohibited." The limitation may be removed when the person satisfactorily accomplishes the requirements listed in § 61.65 of this part for an instrument rating in the same category and class of aircraft listed on the person's commercial pilot certificate.
I think I've got my terminology wrong. By commercial pilot, I'm referring to a pilot who's undertaking commerce, or business, i.e. getting paid to transport paying customers, like Kobe Bryant and his group.
If I'm a near billionaire and frequent helicopter user like Bryant, I'd be demanding the best all weather kit and crew. Why scrimp? I imagine those LA copter charter outfits are now under the scrutiny of celebrities, their agents, producers, team owners and insurance underwriters now.
I think there has been a loosening of restrictions at some point. The only spray applicator in the state had to keep all his non instrument rated pilots on a 50NM leash. (Kinda silly, since none of his Stearmans were IFR capable!) At one point I was the only CFI on staff with an instrument rating (the other two were local only), and I had to do all the forest fire and "bug patrol" flights, all the night instruction, and all the long crosscountries.I think you meant "CFI"
I think there has been a loosening of restrictions at some point. The only spray applicator in the state had to keep all his non instrument rated pilots on a 50NM leash. (Kinda silly, since none of his Stearmans were IFR capable!) At one point I was the only CFI on staff with an instrument rating (the other two were local only), and I had to do all the forest fire and "bug patrol" flights, all the night instruction, and all the long crosscountries.
Cheers,
Wes
I got my "old school" CFI in 1975 (just days after the rules changed) and in 1976, finished up my instrument rating and had to go to the FSDO and upgrade to a "new style" CFI before I could do any more instructing. (I didn't qualify for a "grandfather", so my teaching privileges under the old rules expired one year after the date on my certificate.) Didn't matter, as my GI Bill approval came through for the CFII course, and I was off to Embry Riddle.61.123 hasn't changed in years as the 61.133 requirement which was implemented after Buddy Holly. Now I do remember when you were able to hold a CFI without an instrument rating, I believe that changed in the 1980s.