Landing Craft
- Thread starter syscom3
- Start date
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Twitch
Staff Sergeant
It all becomes quaite a moot point in that we have such stunning 20/20 hindsight.
In the mid 1930s no one had the slightest idea how anything would play out or what should or shouldn't be prioritized.
Had wacky Adolph and his band of merry men focused on a few key items of contention in pre-war times it is completely silly to imagine that German industry under Speer could not create something Hitler set his mind to. If he had envisioned der Kampf including an invasion of GB he would have set in motion the procurement of the required materiel and vehicles.
Since the thrust of armchair hindsight always points its crooked, accusing finger at the Germans, lets look at the Brits on equal terms in 1940. After all, how many LCAs did GB have early on? Thay had nine LCAs and two LCMs which whisked away a grand total of 2,000 of the 300,000 men at Dunkirk. Whoop-dee-doo!
Simply because they didn't does not mean they couldn't.
Had wacky Adolph and his band of merry men focused on a few key items of contention in pre-war times it is completely silly to imagine that German industry under Speer could not create something Hitler set his mind to. If he had envisioned der Kampf including an invasion of GB he would have set in motion the procurement of the required materiel and vehicles.
Since the thrust of armchair hindsight always points its crooked, accusing finger at the Germans, lets look at the Brits on equal terms in 1940. After all, how many LCAs did GB have early on? Thay had nine LCAs and two LCMs which whisked away a grand total of 2,000 of the 300,000 men at Dunkirk. Whoop-dee-doo!
Simply because they didn't does not mean they couldn't.
- Thread starter
- #23
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The point of my thread is to show the many varied amphib craft that the allies possesed to make their invasions successfull.
It is also to show people that the Germans did not possess these types in 1940/1941, and thus could not have invaded the UK.
In the 1930's, the USN and USMC did foresee the need for specialized landing craft, and put into motion the designs and doctrine for their use. The Germans didnt.
It is also to show people that the Germans did not possess these types in 1940/1941, and thus could not have invaded the UK.
In the 1930's, the USN and USMC did foresee the need for specialized landing craft, and put into motion the designs and doctrine for their use. The Germans didnt.
Joe2
Banned
NO NO NO! the doors open sidewards
They do, it splits in the middle and one goes to the left and the other to the right like normal double dorrs...
mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
an amphibious invasion could still be possible even w/o the types of landing craft and amtracs that we used. It would be much more difficult, however - and would likely result in particular vulnerability establishing a beachead with mass casualties - even more so than w/ landing craft. They would have to have been very creative, however, in their overall strategy, and augmented their landings with heavy use of air transport. The losses in the nowweigan campaign were considerable, which is why they needed complete air superiority and the Royal Navy to not be in any position to contest the landings. The British Army was in rough shape at that time, seeing that they abandoned most of their heavy equipment and gear in the evac. I don't personally think that the plan would have been successful, but there's alwyas that chance... if they won the BoB... but the lack of landing craft wouldn't automatically negate any chance on a successful invasion.
- Thread starter
- #27
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The Germans had difficult obstacles to overcome.
1) Their lack of a capability for sustained logistical supply over unimproved beaches
2) The british would be fighting from short lines of supply on their own soil
3) The BA was getting stronger weekly since Dunkirk
4) The RAF could still operate at night with impunity and hammer at the German beaches and ports.
5) The Germans had a very narrow window of opportunity in 1940 to get a beachhead established before the autumn weather set in.
6) For all practical purposes, there was no airlift possible by the Luftwaffe to supply the ground forces.
While I agree that the invasion was not possible without proper landing craft which they had and even if they had conducted a landing the logistics would ahve been to difficult to overcome, the part that I do not agree with is the lack of airlift capability.
The Germans had plenty of Ju-52s, more than eneogh to conduct airlift to supply there forces.
The Germans had plenty of Ju-52s, more than eneogh to conduct airlift to supply there forces.
- Thread starter
- #29
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I dont think they had enough airlift to provide the POL's that the mechanized units would need. That is bulky and heavy, and used quickly.
Same for the ammo for the artillery
They had 1000s of Ju-52 and then there were plenty of other aircraft that could carry heavy equipment as well. The Ju-52 alone could carry 10,000lb of cargo.
Oh and syscom using your logic from the How Safe is your city thread, since you dont have a degree in anything aeronautical, marine or military or combat experience, you dont have a clue what you are talking about. Please stop...
By the way syscom, I am basically just echoeing you here. Do you realize how childish you come across when you say the things you did in that thread.
Probably not, the ego is in the way...
Oh and syscom using your logic from the How Safe is your city thread, since you dont have a degree in anything aeronautical, marine or military or combat experience, you dont have a clue what you are talking about. Please stop...
By the way syscom, I am basically just echoeing you here. Do you realize how childish you come across when you say the things you did in that thread.
Probably not, the ego is in the way...
While we are still on this topic.
The Me-323 first flew in 1941. It could have been pressed into service quicker than 1942 if needed for larger cargo operations.
Same thing with the Ar-232 and the Ju-252, Me-321,
The Me-323 first flew in 1941. It could have been pressed into service quicker than 1942 if needed for larger cargo operations.
Same thing with the Ar-232 and the Ju-252, Me-321,
No I am just playing his childish game.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
i'm with syscom on this one, the RAF wouldn't exactily be willing to let jerry be re-supplied from the air, the LW would have been even more stretched by having to defend the transports, the germans would hold a long thin foothold some some supplies would've ended up in the channel, others in the hands of the British, what's more the germans had no real means of distributing the supplies they have, they would be using up ammo at a massive rate!
- Thread starter
- #35
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Rounding off some numbers, that means the -52 would only be able to supply approx 1200 gallons per sortie. Since mechanized units use the fuel up a prodigious rate, that means lots of -52's would have had to be pressed into service just suppling the trucks and tanks.
Now consider the ammunition loads that the German artillery would expend every day, that alone would require lots of air transport.
Its possible the -52's would have been able to "add" to the logistics equation, but I dont think they could provide substantial help.
I'm just doing some basic math here, and analyzing the inputs of others to form an educated opinion. Lanc (or was it Glider?) for example pointed out the RAF would move outside of the Luftwaffe fighter range and then attack the German invasion forces at opportune times. I factored that into the Germans having an attritional factor that would weigh heavily on them. Plus the BA was pointed out as being recovering from the Dunkirk retreat and was re-equiping at a good rate. That means the German invasion would be contested and not a walk over. Lots of things to factor into this.
It looks like a German invasion of England in 1940 or 1941 was going to fail completely on the lack of staying power once ashore. Just like an allied invasion in 1942 or 1943 was going to be defeated.
Echo if you must.
It doesnt bother me.
Oh dont take me wrong. As I stated I dont think the Germans logistically could have done it. I am just saying that air resupply would have been the least of there problems if and I repeat if they had air supperiority.
And I agreed to that. I said logistically it was not going to happen.
syscom3 said:
Sure it does, dont lie. It bruises your ego...
- Thread starter
- #38
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Didnt the Luftwaffe resupply of the surrounded units at Stalingrad not live up to promises? Not because of the scale of the supply that had to be done, but poorly planned loading manifests meant vital supplies were not being delivered and high attrition rates greatly reduced the sortie rates?
I dont even think the Allied resupply of the troops in Market-Garden were effective, and that was using lots of aircraft with air superiority.
HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
I would just like to say that the Germans did actually have a drawing board Tank Transporter. I found it on a website called something awful where they were talking about German Prototypes. I don't know when it was designed, but it seemed to be fairly similar to the Allied Transports. The only problem I can see for German tanks is for the heavy tanks such as the King Tiger. Also it would need to be fairly quick as Hitler would worry about the Soviet Bear gathering strength and rumbling down in a huge wave. I don't think Hitler or Stalin were under any illusions that the pact that they had signed would last if either side weakened... I think Stalin would have roared down and taken a lot of territory while Hitler was engaging the British.
mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
Syscom - it's not cut and dry...
Remember - the prerequisite for the invasion was the elimination of the RAF - obviously didn't happen, and the sea lion didn't either. The RAF would not be playing that big a role if luftwaffe plans were on track - also driving away the royal navy lest they suffer the fate of PoW and Repulse. Under the protection of the Luftwaffe, german shipping could have delivered supplies as well - an adequate logistical base could very well have been established. Seized airfields would in turn become bases for the Germans on British soil. They were massing hundreds of barges and other craft for their makeshift invasion fleet. It would have been an ugly amphib invasion, just as the invasion of Norway was an abomination. However, this could likely have worked if eagle day and the ensuing battle went the germans way.
Also keep in mind...
1 - the invasion army would not likely have been heavy in mech or armor units - at least not initially
2 - stukas would be augmenting german divisional arty, and as usual be relied upon heavily as mobile arty batteries.
I have seen interviews of British soldiers saying the supply issue post dunkirk was pretty bad - there was training going on w/o weapons and such. You can't equip Bn after Bn overnight.
