GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
U-Boats were pretty much as far as they got.
Even if Britain did get over-run by Germany, removing the Royal Navy from the Atlantic, the Kreigsmarine would still have to get past the U.S. Navy.
Liberate, loot and rape.
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Even if Britain did get over-run by Germany, removing the Royal Navy from the Atlantic, the Kreigsmarine would still have to get past the U.S. Navy.
Exactly, and Germany could not even mount and sustain an invasion of Britain, so there was zero realistic chance of them invading the US.
The US has two major defensive weapons. The Atlantic and the Pacific Oceans. No country in modern times has the ability to invade the US. That includes China and Russia during the cold war and beyond. Our forces have not fought for our freedoms (as in the US) since the Civil War.
This is not an anti-US or anti-military post. Simply stating facts that the US's national borders have not been at risk since the 19th century.
The US has been at risk of nuclear attack since the cold war, but not of an invasion force.
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Alex Smart
Airman 1st Class
- 138
- Oct 25, 2018
For your information my post(now deleted) was not a repeat of my earlier post. It was a full List of the 96 US servimen executed in the European Theatre, I have now deleted my first post.
I'm well aware of the Bund, but it posed no serious threat. At its height it had 25,000 members. Even Germany did not take it too seriously, forbidding any German from joining, and prohibiting the Bund from using any German symbol.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
While I agree that the Third Reich was an existential threat to our Western European allies, I don't think at the time of our entrance into WWII the Germans could do anything more than damage -- not even destroy -- our trade.
Hitler's idiotic decision to declare war against America saved Roosevelt a lot of headaches; it allowed us to be part of the existential threat to the Third Reich that Hitler could only dream of regarding America or the USSR. "Grofaz" my ass ... he sealed the already-shaky fate of the Third Reich on 11 Dec 1941.
I remember a movie partly set in the war and post war period. A British soldier serving in Germany as the war ended wrote to his young brother, saying the women would have sex for a sausage, cigarette or piece of soap. The brother being very young said this to the whole family. Their mother said, "any man who would use a girls hunger in that way is no son of mine, he should give the poor things his food". Along with the violence of rape there was also the grinding poverty and daily humiliation of a population on the edge of starvation. I often wonder how they regained their self respect, but it doesnt need a war, you can see it in many poor countries even today.
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at6
1st Sergeant
Don't give North American tribes any ideas.Let's try a class-action suit to get our ancestral lands back
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I have a considerable amount of Oglala Sioux ancestry (yes, the ones that wiped out Custer) - so now, about those ideas...
Mainly28s
Senior Airman
I don't suppose you remember the name of the movie?
I dont, but I will have a "search" to see if I can jog my memory. It was similar in "atmosphere" to "The Family Way" if you have seen that.
at6
1st Sergeant
My Great Grandmother was Cherokee. That means the Great Grandpa was a squaw man.I have a considerable amount of Oglala Sioux ancestry (yes, the ones that wiped out Custer) - so now, about those ideas...
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Some background info for perspective, maybe:
"German military brothels in World War II - Wikipedia"
"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09612029600200111" (not a happy read, but if you can manage to make your way through it you will get an idea of the situation in immediate post-war occupied East and West Germany)
"Prostitution in the German Democratic Republic - Wikipedia" (ie under the control of the USSR)
"German military brothels in World War II - Wikipedia"
"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09612029600200111" (not a happy read, but if you can manage to make your way through it you will get an idea of the situation in immediate post-war occupied East and West Germany)
"Prostitution in the German Democratic Republic - Wikipedia" (ie under the control of the USSR)
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Not much to add except I got a chuckle thinking about the Kriegsmarine attempting to take on the U.S. Navy in the Western Atlantic. I can see a lot of German steel sliding down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. I believe the term I'd use is "A Royal Bitch Slapping".
But in a word, No. Germany was never going to be a threat to invade the United States, nor was Imperial Japan.
To the OP, the "Victorious Red Army" had a lot to answer for, pretty d_i_s_g_u_s_t_i_n_g IMO.
Can't seem to get rid of that damned emoji so that's the reason for the weird spelling.
But in a word, No. Germany was never going to be a threat to invade the United States, nor was Imperial Japan.
To the OP, the "Victorious Red Army" had a lot to answer for, pretty d_i_s_g_u_s_t_i_n_g IMO.
Can't seem to get rid of that damned emoji so that's the reason for the weird spelling.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Of all the Axis powers, only Japan had the ability to conduct effective naval landings, both in hardware amd strategy.
However, due to the geography of the West Coast of North America, there are limited areas that would allow a substantial force to come ashore.
But the problem is that once ashore, there are a series of mountain ranges that complicate any rapid eastward movement in the majority of coastal areas, creating bottlenecks (or killing zones).
Add to that, the US Navy and USAAF offshore, US Marines and Army once ashore.
Then factor in that a large share of the coast was semi-rural populated with a well armed public.
Such a move by Japan would gave gone down in the history books as the mother of all eff-ups - and may have shortened the Pacific war a little, too.
However, due to the geography of the West Coast of North America, there are limited areas that would allow a substantial force to come ashore.
But the problem is that once ashore, there are a series of mountain ranges that complicate any rapid eastward movement in the majority of coastal areas, creating bottlenecks (or killing zones).
Add to that, the US Navy and USAAF offshore, US Marines and Army once ashore.
Then factor in that a large share of the coast was semi-rural populated with a well armed public.
Such a move by Japan would gave gone down in the history books as the mother of all eff-ups - and may have shortened the Pacific war a little, too.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,583
- May 13, 2018
As George Gobel said, "No Japanese plane ever got past Oklahoma." where he was stationed.
buffnut453
Captain
While I agree from a military perspective, I think there are broader issues at play.
Let's imagine a scenario where Britain crumbles in 1940 and becomes a "neutral" (i.e. Nazi-leaning...or at least acquiescing) actor. Now let's imagine that Japan doesn't attack Pearl Harbor. Would the US go to war in December 1941 if it hadn't been attacked? If not, Japan basically would own the Pacific out as far as Midway, and would threaten Australia. Meanwhile, Nazi Germany would occupy all of Europe.
Thus, apart from neutral Britain, there would be 3 autocratic blocs--Germany, Japan and USSR--that would occupy huge swaths of the globe. How would that impact US trade? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have positive consequences. Would it be enough to bring America to its knees? Absolutely not. However, it would definitely damage trade...unless the US was willing to "make deals with multiple devils," potentially walking back its sanctions on Japan and actively doing trade with Nazi Germany. The ironic potential of arch-capitalist America trading with arch-Communist USSR is not lost on me, either.
Despite the above, I entirely agree that Hitler was incredibly stupid for declaring war on America when he didn't need to. Real schoolboy error!
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Considering the huge domestic markets, America could probably have kept its economy healthy without the other three blocs. Remember that going into the war, America had more oil production than the rest of the world combined, and that by 1945 the American economy was larger than that of the rest of the world combined.
The Vinson Acts had already started rebuilding the USN, and in your scenario, America no longer is providing arms and equipment to allies in big quantities. I'm not convinced that any other power at the time had the capability to do more than force America to turn inward for its economic well-being (by their taking over markets in Europe or Asia).
But with the rearmament putting an end to the Depression (already in progress in 1939), and American consumers finally having the income to pull the economy back up, losing those markets might be annoying, but not existential, I think. No other power had anywhere near the capability to project force across 4000-6000 miles of ocean to threaten us viscerally. Hell, we needed the UK in order to do that in 1944.
buffnut453
Captain
I agree with everything you're saying. America's unique position--geographic location, physical size, and wealth of natural resources--means it's far better able to weather any financial storms. That said, America would absolutely be isolated. It's freedom of maneuver (social and trade...not military) in occupied territories may be significantly impacted and, just like Germany and Japan couldn't impact America, it would be very hard for America to impact the autocratic power blocs.
America could continue to turn inwards, and it possibly could survive on just its internal economy. However, all the while, Japan and Germany are growing their economies, milking the lands that they occupy. Ultimately, either Nazi Germany or the USSR would prevail after Barbarossa gets launched in 1941....so would we see 3 major powers in the world: the US, Japan, and the USSR, the latter occupying Europe? Having America surrounded by non-democratic nations, with no strong Allies, would certainly cramp America's style, particularly if the autocratic powers attempted to gang up on the US.
The US was able to become a superpower in part because it had strong democratic Allies around the world, primarily the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, who shouldered some of the load, collaborated on technology and intelligence, and who were willing to support international trade and a shared set of values. Take those Allies out of the picture and America would lack a lot of the leverage it was able to exercise during and after WW2. America wouldn't be eliminated but its reach and power would be far more constrained than was the historical case.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I think we're saying about the same thing from different angles: this would not be a good thing for America, but it wouldn't be an existential crisis, either. Is that a fair statement in your eyes?
