GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
U-Boats were pretty much as far as they got.
Even if Britain did get over-run by Germany, removing the Royal Navy from the Atlantic, the Kreigsmarine would still have to get past the U.S. Navy.
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
U-Boats were pretty much as far as they got.Were the German's a real threat to the US? Europe, yes, but the US? I doubt it. How would they have ever attacked the US in a manner that would threaten its security or existence?
U-Boats were pretty much as far as they got.
Even if Britain did get over-run by Germany, removing the Royal Navy from the Atlantic, the Kreigsmarine would still have to get past the U.S. Navy.
This plus the Soviets were not an existential threat to the US prior to their gaining nuclear weapons. The National Socialist Regime was.
Don't give North American tribes any ideas.Let's try a class-action suit to get our ancestral lands back
I have a considerable amount of Oglala Sioux ancestry (yes, the ones that wiped out Custer) - so now, about those ideas...Don't give North American tribes any ideas.
I don't suppose you remember the name of the movie?I remember a movie partly set in the war and post war period. A British soldier serving in Germany as the war ended wrote to his young brother, saying the women would have sex for a sausage, cigarette or piece of soap. The brother being very young said this to the whole family. Their mother said, "any man who would use a girls hunger in that way is no son of mine, he should give the poor things his food". Along with the violence of rape there was also the grinding poverty and daily humiliation of a population on the edge of starvation. I often wonder how they regained their self respect, but it doesnt need a war, you can see it in many poor countries even today.
I dont, but I will have a "search" to see if I can jog my memory. It was similar in "atmosphere" to "The Family Way" if you have seen that.I don't suppose you remember the name of the movie?
My Great Grandmother was Cherokee. That means the Great Grandpa was a squaw man.I have a considerable amount of Oglala Sioux ancestry (yes, the ones that wiped out Custer) - so now, about those ideas...
While I agree that the Third Reich was an existential threat to our Western European allies, I don't think at the time of our entrance into WWII the Germans could do anything more than damage -- not even destroy -- our trade.
Hitler's idiotic decision to declare war against America saved Roosevelt a lot of headaches; it allowed us to be part of the existential threat to the Third Reich that Hitler could only dream of regarding America or the USSR. "Grofaz" my ass ... he sealed the already-shaky fate of the Third Reich on 11 Dec 1941.
While I agree from a military perspective, I think there are broader issues at play.
Let's imagine a scenario where Britain crumbles in 1940 and becomes a "neutral" (i.e. Nazi-leaning...or at least acquiescing) actor. Now let's imagine that Japan doesn't attack Pearl Harbor. Would the US go to war in December 1941 if it hadn't been attacked? If not, Japan basically would own the Pacific out as far as Midway, and would threaten Australia. Meanwhile, Nazi Germany would occupy all of Europe.
Thus, apart from neutral Britain, there would be 3 autocratic blocs--Germany, Japan and USSR--that would occupy huge swaths of the globe. How would that impact US trade? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have positive consequences. Would it be enough to bring America to its knees? Absolutely not. However, it would definitely damage trade...unless the US was willing to "make deals with multiple devils," potentially walking back its sanctions on Japan and actively doing trade with Nazi Germany. The ironic potential of arch-capitalist America trading with arch-Communist USSR is not lost on me, either.
Despite the above, I entirely agree that Hitler was incredibly stupid for declaring war on America when he didn't need to. Real schoolboy error!
Considering the huge domestic markets, America could probably have kept its economy healthy without the other three blocs. Remember that going into the war, America had more oil production than the rest of the world combined, and that by 1945 the American economy was larger than that of the rest of the world combined.
The Vinson Acts had already started rebuilding the USN, and in your scenario, America no longer is providing arms and equipment to allies in big quantities. I'm not convinced that any other power at the time had the capability to do more than force America to turn inward for its economic well-being (by their taking over markets in Europe or Asia).
But with the rearmament putting an end to the Depression (already in progress in 1939), and American consumers finally having the income to pull the economy back up, losing those markets might be annoying, but not existential, I think. No other power had anywhere near the capability to project force across 4000-6000 miles of ocean to threaten us viscerally. Hell, we needed the UK in order to do that in 1944.
I agree with everything you're saying. America's unique position--geographic location, physical size, and wealth of natural resources--means it's far better able to weather any financial storms. That said, America would absolutely be isolated. It's freedom of maneuver (social and trade...not military) in occupied territories may be significantly impacted and, just like Germany and Japan couldn't impact America, it would be very hard for America to impact the autocratic power blocs.
America could continue to turn inwards, and it possibly could survive on just its internal economy. However, all the while, Japan and Germany are growing their economies, milking the lands that they occupy. Ultimately, either Nazi Germany or the USSR would prevail after Barbarossa gets launched in 1941....so would we see 3 major powers in the world: the US, Japan, and the USSR, the latter occupying Europe? Having America surrounded by non-democratic nations, with no strong Allies, would certainly cramp America's style, particularly if the autocratic powers attempted to gang up on the US.
The US was able to become a superpower in part because it had strong democratic Allies around the world, primarily the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, who shouldered some of the load, collaborated on technology and intelligence, and who were willing to support international trade and a shared set of values. Take those Allies out of the picture and America would lack a lot of the leverage it was able to exercise during and after WW2. America wouldn't be eliminated but its reach and power would be far more constrained than was the historical case.