LUFTWAFFE CLAIMS SCANDAL - 1942

[fubar57]

I posted the below images last night in another thread and as is my wont, I went back a few minutes ago to check for typos. Reading the pilot's history I saw this...

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Everyone knows about over claiming but this is the first I've seen about a "scandal". Has anyone any information on this and if so could you post where I can find it?

 

[Stig1207]

This is really well known, but this is the best I could do in a hurry 4./Jg27 Schwarm . Three ia picture on page 300.

 

[fubar57]

Thanks for that. I understand the over claiming. I've just never heard of the Luftwaffe chastising their own about it

 

[stona]

The issue was that these four kept making unlikely claims after the British retreat to the El Alamein line and at a time when RAF activity was very much reduced.
I read somewhere that they were actually seen by 2./JG 27's Hans-Arnold 'Fifi' Stahlschmidt, strafing sand dunes before returning to make further claims. Stahlschmidt reported them and they were hauled over the coals by Gustav Roedel, the Gruppenkommandeur who also split up their 'Schwarm'. They seem not to have faced any further disciplinary action and I would suggest that this was due to the shortage of experienced pilots at the time. They were indispensable.

 

[fubar57]

Thank you Steve

 

[manta22]

Wasn't this addressed in the book "A Higher Calling"?

 

[Greg Boeser]

Shores & Company addresses it in Mediterranean Air War Vol II, page 307

 

[stona]

Shores & Company addresses it in Mediterranean Air War Vol II, page 307

Which shows that the story was confirmed by Edu Neumann, Kommodore of JG 27, who must have known all about it.

The problem is that with the emphasis on scores and personal victory tallies within the WW2 Luftwaffe it makes one doubt that these four were the only ones.

 

[Stig1207]

They were the four that were caught out; there were certainly others with suspicious claims. From the MAW series II/ Jg2 during the Tunisian campaign also stands out, in paricular claims for P-38's that can't be linked to any losses.

Overclaiming in WWII was wide spread and occurred on all sides of the conflict in all theatres of the war. Recognising when it was deliberate rather than exuberance is mostly difficult, but it was probably mostly also the latter, i.e. in good faith.

 

[stona]

Overclaiming in WWII was wide spread and occurred on all sides of the conflict in all theatres of the war. Recognising when it was deliberate rather than exuberance is mostly difficult, but it was probably mostly also the latter, i.e. in good faith.

I agree.
With the Luftwaffe you can look for suspicious patterns of claiming as the numbers for personal landmarks or decorations are being approached. If someone makes five claims on one day, taking them to a significant number this MAY be a sign of fraud. It might also be completely legitimate, which is why it is so difficult to be sure.

For example, on 15 October 1940 JG 2 would make ten victory claims in an action during which there were only two British fighter losses. For this it lost three Bf 109s, while the British claimed to have shot down four. One of these eight 'imaginary' victories was chalked up as number 42 for Major Helmut Wick. Now, it is entirely possible that one of the two British aircraft was indeed shot down by Wick, but there is always a suspicion that Wick was keeping a close eye on his tally, relative to his rivals (Galland and Molders).

 

[Keith1967]

Onre of the pilots involved, a senior Nco, is thought to have killed himself when his Bf109 unaccountably dove into the sea. It recalls a similar argument in RAF Fighter Command over the claims of 452 Squadron, and in particlar Flight Lieutenant Paddy Finucane in 1941. This squadron, Finucane and his fellow flight commander consistently outscored the others in the Kenley Wing despite no corroboration through intercepted LW communications. Both were dead before the end of the war.

regards

Keith

 

[stona]

We tend to see this as a Luftwaffe problem, not least because their system was set up to reward the individual 'expert' but that doesn't mean that some Allied pilots were not like minded. There are one or two famous names who were accused of as much, even of putting their squadron mates at unnecessary risk, in their quest to improve their score.

 

[Stig1207]

Onre of the pilots involved, a senior Nco, is thought to have killed himself when his Bf109 unaccountably dove into the sea. It recalls a similar argument in RAF Fighter Command over the claims of 452 Squadron, and in particlar Flight Lieutenant Paddy Finucane in 1941. This squadron, Finucane and his fellow flight commander consistently outscored the others in the Kenley Wing despite no corroboration through intercepted LW communications. Both were dead before the end of the war.

regards

Keith

The Sqd leaders of the the other squadrons of the Kenley Wing, 485 and 602, had a hard time understanding, that flying the same missions, without they seeing a German fighter, No. 452 still came back with victory claims, iirc.

We tend to see this as a Luftwaffe problem, not least because their system was set up to reward the individual 'expert' but that doesn't mean that some Allied pilots were not like minded. There are one or two famous names who were accused of as much, even of putting their squadron mates at unnecessary risk, in their quest to improve their score.

I think it would also be reasonable to say that the Luftwaffe claims have been scrutinised more thoroughly than any Allied airforces has, and with the much higher scores attributed to the Experten compared to Allied aces, that the 'fraudelent' tag is pinned on them more readily.

 

[bwiechman]

Wasn't this addressed in the book "A Higher Calling"?

Yes

 

[Gnomey]

Good stuff guys!

 

[Barrett]

Intentional overclaiming was fairly common. I take a back seat to few in my admiration for the US Marine Corps, but its victory-credit policy in the Solomons was wide-wide open to abuse and therefore was widely abused. The two biggest abusers were Boyington and Hanson. But absent an AAF-style victory credits board, the marines operated on a word-of-honor basis that was wide-wide open to abuse and therefore was widely abused...