Luftwaffe Markings and Colors

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by Zeke_Freak, Dec 30, 2010.

  1. Zeke_Freak

    Zeke_Freak Member

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    #1 Zeke_Freak, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
    Hello. I'm a noobie to these forums. I've tried a few searches for the information I'm looking for and haven't found anything specific. I'm hoping somone can either point me to an existing thread, or simply provide answers to my questions.

    I'm planning a model build using the 1:24 scale Airfix Stuka JU87-B2. I'm thinking of modeling it after one of my favorite Rikyu Watanabe paintings, shown on the Wings Palette website: JU-87B-2, 2./StG 2, T6+CK

    Question #1: I'm trying to identify the colors used on this Stuka scheme. They don't appear to tbe the standard Stuka greens. At first glance they appear black, but on careful inspection you can see the splinter pattern and a slightly contrasting blackish + black-green colors. It's most evident on the tail. I don't have a copy of it any longer, but I believe the book that contains this image mentions that this scheme was used on JU-87s in a night attack role, which wasn't a common role for the Stuka. Can anyone shed any light on this?

    Question #2: Can anyone educate me about the Luftwaffe group markings and grouping terminology. For instance, I know that 'StG 2, T6+CK' identifies an aircraft stationed in a specific group (airfield?) in a specific country (Bulgaria). But how exactly do the markings translate? Does the T6 identify Bulgaria for instance, and CK an airfield? Also, what are the German terms for these groupings, and what do they mean?

    Thank you.

    Leif
     
  2. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    #2 Crimea_River, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
    Hello Leif and welcome to the forums. First off, I'd suggest that the profiles in Wings Pallette need to be researched a bit more to get more info on your particular rig. While a good start and reference, these profiles are not always accurate. Having said that, I've seen a lot of Watanabe's creditable work but the reproduction at Wing's Pallette looks like it over-darkened the original. If this was a night scheme, the code letters would have been emphasized somehow.

    I'll look around if I have any more info on this scheme.

    As to your questions on the Lufwaffe codes, check out this link for useful info:The Luftwaffe in Scale: Identification Codes of Luftwaffe Units 1939 - 1945 There is no correlation between the codes and the location of the unit. Rather, the codes specify the Gruppe, Geschwader (Wing equivalent), Staffel (squadron) and individual aircraft number or letter.

    EDIT - Oops, had the termonology confused - sorry. Fixed now.
     
  3. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Hello and welcome to the forum.
    First, the colours; it looks like they're supposed to be the standard greens and blues, unless there's a scheme someone else knows about for this unit at that time.
    The upper surface splinter pattern would be in RLM70 Schwarzgrun (Blackgreen) and RLM71 Dunkelgrun (Dark Green), with the undersurfaces in RLM65 Hellblau (Light Blue).
    The terminology; The 2/Stg2 means it's an aircraft of the Second Staffel (2 Staffel) of Stuka Geschwader 2. This means it's from the first Gruppe, which would be shown as I/Stg2. The Gruppe is the Wing, the Geshwader is the Group, and the Staffel is the squadron.
    The aircraft markings are; T6 indicating Stg2, C, the aircraft within the Staffel, K the Staffel itself.
    The camouflage colours were painted to a specific pattern, and somewhere here on the forum this should be shown. If you can't find it, then the pattern should be shown in the kit instructions, and can also be seen on a model in the Bombers / Heavy Hitters group Build threads, in the Modelling section
    Hope this is not to confusing, as the Luftwaffe organisation is not easy to describe in a few words, but is easy to understand once you make sense of the numbers/letters!
     
  4. Zeke_Freak

    Zeke_Freak Member

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    #4 Zeke_Freak, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
    Thanks so much guys! I'll have to read through your posts more carefully and do some further study on the Luftwaffe markings and groupings. It sounds fairly complex. But I do get the idea that these markings relate to organizational groupings, and not geographic assignments. I imagine the geographic assignments were documented elsewhere, then later historically correlated to the organizational groupings.

    As for the Stuka color scheme in question, I really appreciate your insights. I've had several comments elsewhere that suggest the image may be darker than it should be. But if that's the case, I believe it must also be in the book's image of this particular Watanabe painting. When I looked at the books image as a kid, I never noticed the splinter pattern at all, and the entire upper surfaces appeared completely black to me. It was a huge image also, covering 2 or 3 pages in a fold out section of the book (iirc).

    I'd love to do it up realistically, but I may consider taking the liberty of fashioning it directly on Watanbe's work, even if its not quite true to life. It's just such a great look for the Stuka, with those very dark colors, and I haven't seen any other model builds that quite appear like this scheme.

    Here's an image I found on the www, that shows the nature of some of the large images in this fairly large hard cover book. This image shows a Stuka D/G, but you can get a sense of how big these images are in the book; in this case covering 3 whole pages that fold out.

    Example Stuka Book Watanabe Image

    Leif
     
  5. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #5 Wurger, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
    Because the profile you posted the link to is too dark I have used Gamma correction for making it brighter. The camo scheme can be noticed better.
     

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  6. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #6 Wurger, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
    And here you are another example of Stukas profile.
     

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  7. Zeke_Freak

    Zeke_Freak Member

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    Thank you Wurger! I can definately see the correct colors in that image now. Also, thank you for directing me to the proper section for my questions and for taking the trouble to move my thread there. I think I may have been searching in the wrong section initially.

    Leif
     
  8. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Really no problem. Please, feel free to ask. :)
     
  9. Zeke_Freak

    Zeke_Freak Member

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    #9 Zeke_Freak, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
    So the colors I'm probably looking to replicate are:

    RLM70 Schwarzgrun (Blackgreen)
    RLM71 Dunkelgrun (Dark Green)
    RLM65 Hellblau (Light Blue)

    Lately I've been using the Tamiya acrylic paints. Is there a particular paint manufacturer that has a better selection of paints for replicating the Luftwaffe colors? I've checked this website as suggested, and it offers some other manufacturer's paint colors, but I thought that someone here might also have some personal experiences with these other paints, that I might benefit from.

    Leif
     
  10. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #10 Wurger, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
    Yes these colours are the ones.

    Concerning the particular paint manufacturer....Tamiya paints are nice but as memo serves you have to mix these often if you want to get the correct tonality of a colour. Sometimes is better if you can buy a set for a particular Air Force camouflage. For instance Lifecolor offers two sets for Luftawaffe camo ( early and later ones.)
    Also Vallejo firm offers very nice paints. But it's up to you only if you use the Tamiya paints or of other firms. It also depends on the final effect you want to achieve on the model ( weathering, etc...). So it is not possible to state unequivocally which paints are better. Almost all of offered paints these days are of a very good quality.
     

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  11. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    And another profile of the T6+CK machine. Source unknown.
     

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  12. Zeke_Freak

    Zeke_Freak Member

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    Yea, that one is also listed on the Wing Palette site as an alternate to the Rikyu Watanabe painting. But they list it as being in Bulgaria and possibly Russia in spring 1941. I guess Bulgaria is the same general area, between Greece and Russia.

    WINGS PALETTE - Junkers Ju.87 Stuka - Germany (Nazi)

    They certainly appear close enough to be one and the same scheme, one with yellow wing tip markings, and the other without.

    Thanks so much Wurger. I'll probably just go for a realistic approach using the standard colors. I might test a slightly darker and lighter palette, just to see what they look like before I make a final decision. I do like the splash of red from the insignia, and the challenge of customizing my markings to look a little different from the standard kit build options.

    Leif
     
  13. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    Leif, I'd venture to say that these tactical air units would have been fairly mobile in 1941, advancing along with the front that they were supporting. So this machine would have had several "bases" in 1941. In April, it appears to have been in Greece. Once Barbarossa kicked off, this unit likley supported that campaign and would have moved frequently.

    As for paints, here in Canada where I noticed you are from (where exactly?), Model Master makes a pretty good line of both enamel and acrylic paints that are formulated for RLM colours and these seem to be commonly available.
     
  14. Zeke_Freak

    Zeke_Freak Member

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    I'm in BC, on Vancouver Island. We have a decent hobby shop in Campbell River, near where my folks live. I think they might carry Model Master paints. I'll have to check them out. I looked over my supply of Tamiya paints and not a one is even close to what I need. So I'm going to either go with the Model Master paints as you suggest, or the Lifecolor paint sets Wurger suggested.

    Excellent point about the planes changing bases in 1941. The Eastern borders changed a lot in that year, and prior to that it makes sense they'd have been in Greece, supporting the German intervention in April, or maybe Germany's assault on Crete in May.

    Leif
     
  15. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #15 Wurger, Dec 31, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2010
    According to the Kagero book about St.G 2 Immelmann the unit was moved to Balkan area at the beginning of the 1941. In January 1941 I./St.G2 was sent to Bulgaria. In mid-February the III./St.G 2 was transferred to an airfield near Bucharest in Romania.In March of 1941 the squadron was moved to a base in Bulgaria. The next movement of both units was in April 1941 when the units were transferred to an airbase in Larissa town in Greece. So I agree with CR's post above.
    Looking at the two pics of Ju-87s used during the campaign I would say that the yellow band on the fuselage is quite incorrect becuse it was used for Eastern front rather. It seems that the rudder should be yellow painted as well. That was typical for the campaign.The yellow wing tips on undersides are more possible but I'm not sure about it too.
    Both shots are from the Kagero book about St.G 2.
     

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  16. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    Heard you guys got lots of snow Leif. Beautiful part of the world you live in.

    Tamiya typically don't make specialized mixes for airforce colours. Great paints but you have to mix them yourself. Someone here may have the ratios for your 70/71/65 scheme.
     
  17. Zeke_Freak

    Zeke_Freak Member

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    #17 Zeke_Freak, Jan 4, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011
    Thank you Wurger, that's great information. I think you're right about the yellow fuselage stripe. I read some place they later went on to Russia by the end of 1941, so it may be the paint scheme shown with the yellow fuslage band is from the Russian Front. I'll probably use the yellow rudder, and not use the yellow fuselage band or yellow wing tips. But I'll keep looking and thinking about this for awhile.

    CR, it's been cold here (for us warm west coast wimps), but we haven't had much snow fall here yet (at lower elevations). We had one massive dump in late November, of close to a foot in a matter of a few hours. That 3-4 hrs of snowfall sat on the ground for more than a week though, which is unheard of here. Normally, we rarely see snow, and when we do, it's washed away by rain within a day.

    Although, we are getting lots of snow in the mountains here. Mt Washington ski resort has had record snow falls. The lower elevations have had huge amounts of rain.

    Leif
     
  18. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    You'r welcome. :)
     
  19. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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  20. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    #20 Wayne Little, Jan 5, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2011
    My Colours as done on my Ju88

    RLM 70 XF27 Black Green
    RLM 71 XF13 JA Army green 2 Parts and XF61 Dark Green 1 Part
    RLM 65 XF23 Light Blue 1 Part XF 2 White 1 Part
     

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