Luftwaffe Pilots - Sanctioned to Bail Out?

[Kryten]

theres only one reason not to shoot a pilot in a chute, and thats simply that you dont want it done to your people!

other than that killing every pilot you shot down over thier territory makes very good strategic sense!

 

[jayastout]

Self Defence in my opinion would be the wrong term to use. I think an more apt description would be Self Preservation. I don't believe they would bail not before engaging B-17 formations. I would believe that some would have say coming apon P-47s or P-51s that severely outnumbered them. that would be more plausable.

Yes, of course. Self preservation is what I meant. A fine but important distinction.

 

[Ratsel]

The thing was, in WW2 the situation hadn't really been anticipated, and wasn't covered by the Geneva Conventions, so authorities kind of winged it. The general idea that people came up with, was that pilots parachuting over enemy territory would be going to almost-certain captivity, so shouldn't be shot at; while pilots parachuting over their own territory would be returning to the fight the next day, if not sooner, and so were fair game.

How it actually worked out, over Germany at least, was that American fliers were instructed to shoot at German pilots under their chutes. German pilots were instructed not to shoot American pilots under their chutes.

After the war, it was decided that, regardless of which territory they were over; pilots bailing out their aircraft were no longer in the fight, no longer capable of "offering meaningful resistance" and not able to defend themselves; therefore they should not be shot at. (Article 42 of the Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol 1)).


Paratroopers are a completely different matter, you don't have to wait until they reach the ground, you can open up on them with everything you've got as soon as you see them.

 

[Readie]

theres only one reason not to shoot a pilot in a chute, and thats simply that you dont want it done to your people!

There was a chivalry between the airforces that precluded such barbaric behaviour. It was enough to shoot a plane down.
The books written about Galland, Tuck, Molders etc all say that they were warriors and would fight hard...but, fight fair (or as fairly as you can in total war)
Obviously there is the lunatic fringe on all sides, but the majority of WW2 pilots would not have gunned a man in a parachute down in cold blood.

If you look at the mutual respect between Tuck and Galland when they talk of their wartime experiances you'll see why I have come to this view.

Having said that, the only question mark I have is that of the Japanese who's life values where a little different to the other nations involved in WW2.

Cheers
John

 

[tyrodtom]

Ratsel posted - How it actually worked out, over Germany at least, was that American fliers were instructed to shoot at German pilots under their chutes. German pilots were instructed not to shoot American pilots under their chutes.

Where is your proof of these instructions ? Individual pilots on both sides knew in most cases nobody was looking over their shoulders all the time, and it was a big sky they were fighting in. They could do what they wanted and nobody would get singled out if they stepped out of line, because it was usually impossible to track down who was responsible.

But the allied pilots knew if they gunned parachuting Luftwaffe pilots it would be done to them also. They Luftwaffe pilots would have had no problem seeing the tit for tat that would result in return. Chivalry in war is a oxymoron.

 

[Readie]

Chivalry in war is a oxymoron.

I would generally agree with you Tom, but the pilots of the LW RAF seem to bear out the 'chivalry' concept. I can only pass on my thoughts on the books I have read.
Maybe it is a romantic, fanciful notion. I don't know as I wasn't there to be shot at !

Cheers
John

 

[Ratsel]

Ratsel posted - How it actually worked out, over Germany at least, was that American fliers were instructed to shoot at German pilots under their chutes. German pilots were instructed not to shoot American pilots under their chutes.

well Eisenhower expressly forbad it in a memo to his commanders. Even he knew it was happening. anyways, like I said, thats how it worked out. I NEVER said however that it was carried out in only that way.

Individual pilots on both sides knew in most cases nobody was looking over their shoulders all the time, and it was a big sky they were fighting in. They could do what they wanted and nobody would get singled out if they stepped out of line, because it was usually impossible to track down who was responsible.

no, they couldn't do what they wanted. that goes for both sides.

Chivalry in war is a oxymoron.

Chivalry was alive and well, on both sides of the European conflict in WWII. well, except for the russians french (just my opinion. so no hate mail please).

 

[tyrodtom]

Maybe the French and Russians, after the extreme lack of chivalry shown to them by their invaders, just gave back as they were given.

 

[davebender]

September 23, 1944.
Operation Market-Garden. Two fighter Gruppen from JG2 and JG26 are strafing ground targets. CPT Eder is leading the attack. They receive word from the FLIVO (Luftwaffe forward air control net) that swarms of bandits were over the Zuider-Zee.

Aster 53, a JG26 pilot, declared that he had a mechanical problem. CPT Eder thought otherwise.

"You've filled your trousers! Ram them and then climb out. After that then you can say you've got a mechanical problem."
.....from "It Never Snows in November" by Robert Kershaw

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

How it actually worked out, over Germany at least, was that American fliers were instructed to shoot at German pilots under their chutes. German pilots were instructed not to shoot American pilots under their chutes.

Who gave these instructions?

I might be wrong (I will admit if I am), but I don't believe that such instructions were ever given.

 

[Ratsel]

Too, Eisenhower expressly forbad it in a memo to his commanders (however, the memo was about a larger issue) just before D-Day. This indicates that it happened often enough that he felt compelled to do something about it.

if you could post this document, that would be most appreciated. I had one that mentioned General Jimmy Doolittle by name (not from President Eisenhower), but darn if I can find it now it may have been a bookmark for a website.

September 23, 1944.
Operation Market-Garden. Two fighter Gruppen from JG2 and JG26 are strafing ground targets. CPT Eder is leading the attack. They receive word from the FLIVO (Luftwaffe forward air control net) that swarms of bandits were over the Zuider-Zee.

Aster 53, a JG26 pilot, declared that he had a mechanical problem. CPT Eder thought otherwise.

"You've filled your trousers! Ram them and then climb out. After that then you can say you've got a mechanical problem."
.....from "It Never Snows in November" by Robert Kershaw

I guess he would have a mech. problem after ramming

Having said that, the only question mark I have is that of the Japanese who's life values where a little different to the other nations involved in WW2.

Cheers
John

The Germans had the Leonidas Squadron, which was a true "Self-sacrifice missions" (Selbstopfereinsatz) unit. Goering showed little intrest, and Hitler did not like it at all. there were few deployments, mostly against bridges to hinder russian advances towards Berlin. with no appreciable results.

 

[Readie]

Who gave these instructions?

I might be wrong (I will admit if I am), but I don't believe that such instructions were ever given.

Yep, I have never read anything to verify the shooting (execution) of parachuting bailed out pilots on either side of WW2.
What reception the pilots received when they landed is another matter.
Cheers
John

 

[Readie]

The Germans had the Leonidas Squadron, which was a true suicide unit. Goering showed little intrest, and Hitler did not like it at all. there were few deployments, mostly against bridges to hinder russian advances towards Berlin. with no appreciable results.

Leonidas Squadron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thank you, I have learnt something this evening. I had always thought the concept of a 'suicide pilot' was a Japanese thing to do with their beliefs and values.

Cheers
John

 

[Ratsel]

Yep, I have never read anything to verify the shooting (execution) of parachuting bailed out pilots on either side of WW2.
What reception the pilots received when they landed is another matter.
Cheers
John

nor will you likely read about it. it was a wink,wink, nod proposition. also, you will not(possibly not) see any documenting the act of deliberatly shooting pilots under there chutes. but it existed, to the point of enacting rules. (Article 42 of the Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol 1)).

however, as said before, there were letters sent from the C&C out to relevant personel that forbid the practice.

 

[jayastout]

if you could post this document, that would be most appreciated.

It was posted by one of our friends over on the Axis History forum. Read the last two sentences:


Letter from Supreme Allied Commander General Dwight D. Eisenhower to Air Officer Commanding RAF Bomber Command, Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur T. Harris and Commander United States Strategic Air Force, Lieutenant General Carl A. Spaatz, 2nd June 1944.

Air Attacks on Civilians
During current and future intensive air operations, Allied airmen are required by their duty to fly and fight continuously over enemy and occupied territories of Europe. The enemy who is fearful of these attacks because of their devastating effect of his transport and the morale of his troops, is endeavouring to prevent them by propaganda designed to prove to the peoples of Europe that Allied airmen are wilfully shooting up harmless civilians in the course of their fighter sweeps and tactical bombing attacks. It is essential to remember that much of the air fighting will take place over the heads of friendly people, who have endured the savagery of the Germans for years. Humanity and the principles for which we fight demand from our pilots scrupulous care to avoid any but military targets.
The Air Forces of the United Nations are privileged to be the spearhead of the forces fighting for freedom and the herald to the oppressed peoples of Europe of our approach. Be careful that nothing is done to betray this trust or to prejudice our good name in the eyes of our friends still dominated by Nazi tyranny. I request that those instructions be brought to the attention of every member of aircrews fighting over Europe. I would add that similar considerations apply to enemy airmen compelled to escape by parachute. Such personnel are not legitimate military targets, and may not be deliberately attacked.

Source - Public Record Office WO 219 325

 

[Readie]

I suppose we have to remember the desperate times while we are discussing the finer points of human behaviour.
Does everything go out the window?

Its hard to say as none of us where there and we rely on documents and hearsay.

I ask an open question...would you shoot a bailed out pilot if you were a pilot in WW2?

John

 

[tyrodtom]

It's easy to sit at the computor and say never. But no one knows for sure what they'll do when they're under the influence of adrenalin, fear, hate, and all the other passions envolved in any kind of close combat.

 

[Readie]

I know Tom, that's why I asked the question. I cannot say what I would do myself in those circumstances either,
To be quite honest I'm glad I will never know.
John

 

[tyrodtom]

I think I wouldn't shoot a pilot in a parachute, normally. But if that same pilot had just blew one my own friends aircraft out of the sky, I'm not sure what i'd do. War can sometimes get personal.

 

[Ratsel]

Letter from Supreme Allied Commander General Dwight D. Eisenhower to Air Officer Commanding RAF Bomber Command, Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur T. Harris and Commander United States Strategic Air Force, Lieutenant General Carl A. Spaatz, 2nd June 1944.

I would add that similar considerations apply to enemy airmen compelled to escape by parachute. Such personnel are not legitimate military targets, and may not be deliberately attacked.

Source - Public Record Office WO 219 325

thank you Sir

I ask an open question...would you shoot a bailed out pilot if you were a pilot in WW2?

John

Discipline training. that will dictate ones next move (a direct quote from my Grandfather).