Luftwaffe Pilots - Sanctioned to Bail Out?
- Thread starter jayastout
- Start date
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yes! awesome story! what makes an ace an ace? read the Franz Stigler interview
By a lot of aces own admissions, Erick Hartmann as well as others, a lot of aircraft they shot down didn't even know they were in anybodies sights . In other words they snuck up behind them and blew them away. But of course they were very careful in their aim, made sure they hit everything , but the pilot.
That's chivalry too I suppose ?
War is a dirty business, the few individuals that can show compassion to a enemy is notable for it's exception.
That's chivalry too I suppose ?
War is a dirty business, the few individuals that can show compassion to a enemy is notable for it's exception.
Erich
the old Sage
just to get back on topic as this thread has rambled off.............
case in point is inexperienced youth at the controls of a 109 or Fw 190, period. this was not normal but happened probably on a daily operational basis in 1945. there was no time or safe haven for any LW single engine prop unit for training due to US incursions by 9th AF fighter bombers and US 8th and 15th Mustangs on deep penetration raids with strafing of LW A/F's. the youth went up with a Staffel leader barely older and wiser than they with no operational missions under their belt never being in a combat scenario with a US heavy of fighter in fighter vs fighter exchanges. In other words they were .50 fodder .................
case in point is inexperienced youth at the controls of a 109 or Fw 190, period. this was not normal but happened probably on a daily operational basis in 1945. there was no time or safe haven for any LW single engine prop unit for training due to US incursions by 9th AF fighter bombers and US 8th and 15th Mustangs on deep penetration raids with strafing of LW A/F's. the youth went up with a Staffel leader barely older and wiser than they with no operational missions under their belt never being in a combat scenario with a US heavy of fighter in fighter vs fighter exchanges. In other words they were .50 fodder .................
I don't know. you'd have to ask them. I suspect that wherever the bullets hit.. thats where they hit. if the e/a pilot was killed, so go the fortune of war. I don't think anybody here was saying chivalry was omnipresent during WWII.. just that in some situations it was in fact a case of chivalry.
I know of accounts where Luftwaffe pilots followed a plane they just shotup down, to make sure the e/a pilot got out ok. then themselves were shot down by ground fire. Is that Chivalry?
No doubt war is brutal, but perhaps some pilots chose to make it a little honorable.
well said.
And where is the proof of this? Again, I have never seen or heard of anything like this.
You seem to be very sure of this, yet know one else seems to know anything about it. Please enlighten us. I personally don't believe it.
Of course it happened on both sides, but I seriously doubt there was any "Shoot them in the chutes" (wink, wink) instructions from any of them.
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Kryten
Senior Airman
its actually quite difficult for us to empathise either way, to us these days Germans are Germans, Russians are Russians, Brits Brits and yanks yanks, but back then the level of sheer hatred that the Nazi's managed to garner for themselves is almost unfathomable to us now, we see a Luftwaffe pilot doing his job, many saw him as a Nazi murderer who was part of the war machine that caused millions of deaths!
the level of hatred between the Russians and Germans was a case in point!
hatred like that dehumanises people!
the level of hatred between the Russians and Germans was a case in point!
hatred like that dehumanises people!
Mustang nut
Banned
- 200
- Jun 14, 2011
During the BoB Dowding considered RAF pilots were legitimate targets for the LW (they could return to combat) but LW pilots were not legitimate targets for the RAF (they were prisoners). However LW rescue planes with red crosses were attacked on Dowdings orders.
There is no doubt both sides occasionally did shoot pilots in parachutes but I dont think it was ever ordered.
I read about one RAF pilot who baled out at very high altitude and a LW pilot repeatedly flew over to collapse his chute and get him down to where he could breathe.
There is no doubt both sides occasionally did shoot pilots in parachutes but I dont think it was ever ordered.
I read about one RAF pilot who baled out at very high altitude and a LW pilot repeatedly flew over to collapse his chute and get him down to where he could breathe.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
There are plenty of instances where newly captured POWs were shot. All nations did this at one time or another and it was always (as far as I am aware) against military regulations and orders from higher HQs.
Personally I think it's bloodlust. Combat is a matter of kill or be killed. Emotions for killing the enemy cannot be flipped off like a light switch just because an enemy raises his hands or bails out of a burning aircraft.
The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility.
- British Sea Lord John Fisher
Personally I think it's bloodlust. Combat is a matter of kill or be killed. Emotions for killing the enemy cannot be flipped off like a light switch just because an enemy raises his hands or bails out of a burning aircraft.
The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility.
- British Sea Lord John Fisher
Erich
the old Sage
how about we go back to the original posters intended question ................... please
Maybe those inexperienced pilots felt if they stayed in the aircraft they WOULD get shot down and die, but if they jumped, they might get shot in their chutes, or they might just be allowed to drift to earth unharmed. A lot evidently believed the the chute was the best choice.
Erich
the old Sage
why serve a regime you no longer believe in ? that is very key, as I said earlier seeing your brothers in your staffel getting pancaked into the ground did not seem to appetizing to the LW youth who on most occasions could not even get close to the bombers flying daily over the Reich skies. there were not enough high element "Höhenschutz" ( high elevation protection squadrons ) available as there should of been. this has been discussed at some length in earlier threads on the Sturmgruppen, JG 301 vs the US 355th fg etc..........
I spoke with a friend of mine. He said 'not so common occurance' and 'definately wasn't sanctioned'. 'you were expected to fight for your unit and your homeland'. he went on to say 'sometimes they get hit by a few bullets coming from behind (the inexperianced ones), no real damage really, they couldn't see the enemy, and they would jump'. and too add, at that time of the war you wouldn't pull the cord until the last possible moment'. His aircraft was hit bad, caught fire, raised the nose to gain altitude, then he bailed ( he broke his arm bailing out) at 800m+ but didn't pull it until 400m. Next thing he knew he was on the ground.
They weren't. You are not wrong.
Steve
Edit I see someone else has already posted the order I was trying to dig out. We should deal in facts,hopefully documented not baseless tittle-tattle and opinion.
A forced landing wasn't always a better option. 24 year old Unteroffizier Herbert Maxis was flying on operation Bodenplatte and belly landed his Bf109G-14 near a position occupied by the 739th Field Artillery Battallion. As he climbed unhurt from his aircraft he raised his hands and tried to surrender but one of the Americans shot him dead. There are some sad pictures of the unfortunate Maxis lying on the wing of his aircraft....without his boots which have been "liberated". Infact the Americans stripped his body to such an extent that no identification could be found and he was buried as "unknown". He is still officially M.I.A. as his grave is now lost.
There was talk of a court martial,the man who shot him was known,but the idea was dropped when it was claimed that Maxis came in with his guns blazing. I doubt he did,he would have been busy trying to get his damaged aircraft down in one piece.I suspect this embellishment was agreed upon as the whole affair was covered up.
Just one instance amongst thousands.
This is not a pop at that U.S. unit,it could have been anybody.War,as the saying goes,is hell.
Steve
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Unless you're a very, very, experienced jumper, there's no way to tell how high you are once you're out of that aircraft. Even the altimeters of the time couldn't tell you how high you were above the ground, it was in relation to sea level pressure. Unless you knew the altitude of the particular ground you were flying over, and subtracted that from your altitude, you would have no idea how high you were when you jumped.
Most people would be able to tell 800m from 400m , but when you're falling about 60m a second, there isn't a lot of room for error.
Most people would be able to tell 800m from 400m , but when you're falling about 60m a second, there isn't a lot of room for error.
Erich
the old Sage
I've personally interviewed dozens of former LW pilots on S/E. the order was to flip the A/C over and drop or pop out after releasing the canopy at 400 m or less due to fact of being shot at by US fighters while hanging in the parachutes. Same goes for Me 262 pilots, there are many first hand impressions in this regard for the LW in late 44 into 45.
but the question is why LW pilots even bailed out as their A/C was not even hit. My basis goes back to what I first mentioned. yes few instances but they seem to stand out in US Mustang pilot reports. the German pilot wanted to live another day, the A/C could be replaced the pilot could not......and if we want to get real picky I have LW fighter pilots report getting close onto the tail of B-24's without firing a shot and watching US bomber crews bailing out
but the question is why LW pilots even bailed out as their A/C was not even hit. My basis goes back to what I first mentioned. yes few instances but they seem to stand out in US Mustang pilot reports. the German pilot wanted to live another day, the A/C could be replaced the pilot could not......and if we want to get real picky I have LW fighter pilots report getting close onto the tail of B-24's without firing a shot and watching US bomber crews bailing out
I don't know about parachuting but your friend is expressing an opinion.
Read the encounter reports. On some occasions Luftwaffe pilots abandoned their aircraft as soon as they were aware of an allied fighter commencing an attack and BEFORE they were fired upon. An air to air attack doesn't start when one aircraft opens fire!
Here's one from "Mike" Gladych,who seems to have had a go at the pilot after he bailed out.
Here's one where the U.S.pilot beleives that parachutes are being attacked. Notice that the intelligence officer has bracketed the comment which makes it unusual or notable.
You could also jump to late.
Steve
Erich
the old Sage
read some Mustang reports here and then go to the home page of Mike W. and find the 56th fg as was quoted by stona, it's all there in a mish mash.
Mustang Encounter Reports
Mustang Encounter Reports
