Luftwaffe Pilots - Sanctioned to Bail Out?

[Njaco]

along with Eric's post about the LW, also take into acount that after Sept 44 when a/c parks were getting loaded with aircraft, a lot of pilots and mechanics, instead of fixing a battered machine, just went and picked a new one up. How this was reflected in the stats, I don't know, but I could guess that might be recorded a a loss. Maybe?

And especially in the East with the front changing quickly, many a/c were left on bases as JGs had to move quickly. Another loss to the stats?

 

[drgondog]

along with Eric's post about the LW, also take into acount that after Sept 44 when a/c parks were getting loaded with aircraft, a lot of pilots and mechanics, instead of fixing a battered machine, just went and picked a new one up. How this was reflected in the stats, I don't know, but I could guess that might be recorded a a loss. Maybe?

And especially in the East with the front changing quickly, many a/c were left on bases as JGs had to move quickly. Another loss to the stats?

I have had several exchanges with Dr Prien on the subject of battle damaged German aircraft, due to crash landing and strafing damage. He was pretty clear that the LW made every effort to repair those with less than '60% damage'. he was less clear on disposition of various staged damaged ships either as hanger queens or how many were lost as a result of transit to major repair facilities or simply abandoned when retreating - particularly at end of war.

The huge difference in perception between a US/RAF fighter claim as 'destroyed' for a battle damaged 109 that crash landed - is that there was a chance it would be returned to service even if the pilot died of wounds - therefore in the minds of the LW, the aircraft was not 'lost'. I know this accounts for some of the over claiming by USAAF but have no sense of percentage.

 

[drgondog]

during the course of this conversation i did a quick half @$$ed look throught the one fighter group's loses to see what were the most prevelant causes. wrecks/collisions was #1...now that encompassed everything....training, coming back from missions (possibly shot up or low on fuel ), some bad weather, and collisions possibly in combat. you think about a fur ball with some 30 to 60 planes...each going 300+ mph with machinegun and cannon rounds whipping around as well....just not a healthy place to be. anyways, enemy fighters was 2nd and flak came in 3rd.

It's all about the mission profile for the group. The two leading strafers, 355th and 4th FG, had far higher losses strafing than air to air.

Comparisons versus 357FG
The 355th had nearly 5x the scores on the ground and about 2.5x losses to flak than 357th FG.. The 357th had 2x fatal accidents to the 355th (12 to six) and 1.5X Ops losses to 355th (weather, fuel, mechanical) (45 to 31) - these are P-51 Operations statistics for about the same number of sorties.

Net - the 357th was a better air to air success story, but operationally in context of German fighters destroyed per operational loss the 355th was slightly better.

 

[Njaco]

Thanks Bill. I agree about the determination to repair damaged a/c but did Prien ever say this was still a priority towards the end? I think thats where even 20% damaged a/c might have been left as is and a new one obtained - do you know if this would have been listed as a loss or still recorded as damaged?

 

[drgondog]

Thanks Bill. I agree about the determination to repair damaged a/c but did Prien ever say this was still a priority towards the end? I think thats where even 20% damaged a/c might have been left as is and a new one obtained - do you know if this would have been listed as a loss or still recorded as damaged?

Simple answer - no idea what the processes were at the very end. Until April, however the LW was able to retreat in an orderly fashion, leaving only the aircraft which could not have wings removed and transported by truck or rail (preferably at night - lol)

 

[Erich]

this is invariably tied into your question Njaco, what were the shortages during 1945 of fuel and reserves for both the day/night fighter forces, lets be blunt here....................... during the spring of 45 the A/F's were covered with parked LW crates just haphazardly left sitting with no camo attempts to be riddled with .50 cal rounds. Eisting day/night fighter staffeln in a gruppe were now being reduced to 1-2 staffels and even then hardly any fuel except for the few aces still flying, the pilots could pick any A/C they felt like taking as long as ammo was in supply on the craft.

 

[jayastout]

Not sure what document you mean Jay!

Cheers
Steve

Hmmm...can't see it now, Steve. I think it was embedded in your post of 8-22-11. It was only part of a page but it looked like an intelligence debriefing of a captured Luftwaffe pilot. It'd be great to get a copy of something like that if it's available.

Regards,
Jay

 

[bobbysocks]

those ad hoc stats were from KIAs only...i didnt have a chance to look at the reasons POWs were brought down. so that part of the "loses" group is mssing from my numbers for that FG. additionally, there were a lot of crashes that lead to neither POW or KIA ...but werent on their home field and the pilotswere returned to their units within days. these i am having a hard time locating. i cant find the information regrading these. i know on one Jan 45 mission low fuel and bad weather forced several guys to belly in on farmers fields in france. some made it to a 9th AF bases but crumpled them on after sliding off the icy steel runway. (iirc, shortly afterwards an order came out to not land at 9th bases as to not "tie-up" the runways with wrecks.) i can only find a few of these incidents of wreckage rercorded but not the one's i know for sure.

 

[drgondog]

those ad hoc stats were from KIAs only...i didnt have a chance to look at the reasons POWs were brought down. so that part of the "loses" group is mssing from my numbers for that FG. additionally, there were a lot of crashes that lead to neither POW or KIA ...but werent on their home field and the pilotswere returned to their units within days. these i am having a hard time locating. i cant find the information regrading these. i know on one Jan 45 mission low fuel and bad weather forced several guys to belly in on farmers fields in france. some made it to a 9th AF bases but crumpled them on after sliding off the icy steel runway. (iirc, shortly afterwards an order came out to not land at 9th bases as to not "tie-up" the runways with wrecks.) i can only find a few of these incidents of wreckage rercorded but not the one's i know for sure.

There are always possible errors but I have a pretty good feel for all 8th AF losses - at least ops, plus accidents in which a fatality occurred. I have pretty much covered the Macrs which is how I was able to separate types of losses.

 

[seesul]

Hmmm...can't see it now, Steve. I think it was embedded in your post of 8-22-11. It was only part of a page but it looked like an intelligence debriefing of a captured Luftwaffe pilot. It'd be great to get a copy of something like that if it's available.

Regards,
Jay

Jay, did you get my PM I sent you yesterday? Thx.

 

[jayastout]

Jay, did you get my PM I sent you yesterday? Thx.

Seesul--No, I didn't get it. Did you use jayastout "at" usa dot net?

Thanks for trying,
Jay