Luftwaffe Pilots - Sanctioned to Bail Out?

[Erich]

you comment really has nothing to do with bailing out, truth of the matter the pilot WAS more important than the A/C, the LW needed the pilots however they were equipped with experience to fight for the last futile efforts of the Reich in the West and Ost fronts for the Battle of Berlin February 45 into May 45.

 

[stona]

Drop tanks sometimes hung up. Here's a view from the other side. F/Sgt Hudson of 130 Sqn. was involved in combat with Bf109s on 8/12/44. He was flying a Spitfire XIV. Here's how he concludes his report.

"I claim this Me 109 as probably destroyed, as when I last saw it it was wallowing around and appeared out of control at about 150 feet.
I could not get rid of my drop tank at first, but I found that even with the tank on I could turn inside the e/a."

Here's what F/O Walmsley had to say after his involvement in the same incident.

"The Spitfire XIV is definitely better than the 109 as I could do a better climbing turn even with my tank on. With my tank on the e/a could almost follow me but could not get a deflection shot at me. The e/a were using tracer and self-destructing ammunition. The camouflage was earth green and brown and blended well with the cloudy weather."

Flying with a tank on wasn't so bad in the right aeroplane.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Erich]

think of the important fact as if you are an Fw 190A-8 pilot attacking the rear of a US bomber formations with many .50's blarring away at you, the tank still holding on, what a gorgeous and most flammable target.

 

[stona]

I agree Erich,it seems like madness and in some encounter reports the attacking (allied) pilots remark that the drop tank of their target exploded. This didn't always destroy the aircraft.
I was posting those allied accounts because I was surprised that they too would enter combat with their tanks on.
Steve

 

[parsifal]

Its madnes from the individual pilots point of view, but I can actually see some perverted logic in it. By 1945, a tank of gas was probably worth more to the LW than a surviving pilot. Probably 90% of the LW was grounded due to lack of fuel, wheras maybe 10% of airframes couldnt fly for lack of a pilot. Putting it crudely, pilots were expendable, fuel was not

 

[tyrodtom]

you comment really has nothing to do with bailing out, truth of the matter the pilot WAS more important than the A/C, the LW needed the pilots however they were equipped with experience to fight for the last futile efforts of the Reich in the West and Ost fronts for the Battle of Berlin February 45 into May 45.

My comment was not intended to have anything to do with bailing out. It was intended to counter that Luftwaffe pilots would consider mutiny or desertion as a consequence of the order to retain their drop tanks at all costs.
But the strict disipline policies of the German military couldn't help but influence some decisions these pilots made. They all knew if the wrong person saw them bail out too early, there could be repercussions.

 

[Ratsel]

only very green pilots would follow those orders anyways.. but more then likely they forgot the basics of aerial combat. veterens would drop the tanks ( except the ones that carried 300l of beer... no joke). After Bodenplatte.. well actually a little before that, groupe commanders were ignoring suicidal orders anyways. Wasn't like the SS was there monitoring their every move.

speaking of suicide, the Luftwaffe had the Leonidas Squadron ( a staffel in KG 200(?)). they didn't carry any parachutes. BUT they did have to sign a paper saying that they would willingly give their life, and their mission would result in their death. I think they dropped that idea after higher ups thumbed their noses at it, sighting it was a waste of life and materials. but not before a few missions took place. I can't remember the unit, but it was another volenteer staffel one where they would ram heavies.. but they had parachutes fully intent on bailing out just before or just after impact.

 

[Erich]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm how to make comment

the drop tank was a leverage point it was to carry the hopeful JG to longer ranges to apply more cannon rounds into the Us heavy bombers whether US fighter escorts were involved or not. To be honest I would say either we have some pretty green pilots that were staying as close as they could in formation or to their attacking leader and did not follow orders to drop tank as protocol would be intended or we have a pilot of some skill or questionable skill who thought he had dropped tank as he was in the attack mode with a US bomber/fighter.

As the result of being pursued often a jump on a LW fighter the German pilot is only thinking of one thing and that is too dive and roll as close to the earth as possible instead of giving of himself in battle and in this regard it is more than a 1 on 1 situation but 3 to 1 or more.

orders were ignored as much as possible this can be said as example: of the original thesis in the Sturmgruppen - IV. Sturm/JG 3 as to have all ammo expended and then ram a bomber in any means possible to bring it down. Again the point is the pilot is more important than the A/C which can be replaced.

 

[stona]

Well covered by Neil Page in his Luftwaffe blog here.

FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: Search results for kamikaze

Steve

 

[Erich]

Not sure if you guys knew this or not but Neil and I had the most definitive web-site on he net covering all 3 Sturmgruppen for several years, which of course is not longer available. Ospreys book is trash ..............

 

[jayastout]

I did not know that. Interesting link. The discussion of the Nazi Kamikazes was interesting.

Any idea where a person could get a copy--I didn't notice if it said, and it's not listed on Amazon.

BTW, if you could recommend a few books--in English--that describe air action from the German perspective I'd be appreciative. Particularly those that include first-hand accounts.

 

[Erich]

sorry but the German philosophy abhoars in this case giving of oneself in air combat by ramming to the death. may or may not help but I know Oskar and Fritz, have for many years. When Sonderkommando Elbe was shown Fritz was pretty upset with the history channel for not translating some of the German language from two of his kameraden correctly, (they were not done speaking when they were cut-off), he even wrote me asking me what he should do as this was the reason and the only reason thinking the History channel would do the utmost to represent his unit truthfully..............nope.

Neil did a good job with his overview but after seeing the episode completely several times I almost puked it was full of errors or unfinished statements that were needed to take one to the next level of understanding.

Jay you need to take up German as this is really the only way you will get a true nature of the Kommando and Sturmstaffel 1/Sturmgruppen in books detailing this subject matter, there is nothing and I mean nothing worthy in English so far.

 

[bobbysocks]

You read the combat reports about attacked the LW pilots not dropping their tanks...and if you check out gun camera footage you will see it in all the dramatic and devistating effects. and you would say it is insane...or they were green or too busy evading at that point. for us airmen it was routine. when confirmed bandits were sighted the first thing you did was set your fuel selector and drop tanks. it didnt matter to them....they were over german occupied territory. if the tank came down, with the burst of fuel starting a blaze that burnt something...no big deal it was german! now for the LW pilot it was a different story. he gets bounced over berlin, kassel, munich...he may not be so anxious to dump a load octane fuel on his own city and possibly cause harm to the countrymen he is trying to protect. i would think...and yes this is all supposition i have never read a LW pilot's account of such...he would try to evade to a place where he could drop it. given the circumstances he may take fatal outcome rather than possibly hurting his own.

 

[Erich]

D ~

it was standard procedure to drop tanks before an attack on a US bomber formation. you might say this was an unwritten law/ due to the prospect of getting bounced during summer of 44 and later there was no need to have the extra weight, this in effect answers in part why the Fat ones order was not always adhered to - it was that stupid

 

[bobbysocks]

E,

Oh i understand that. but wasnt the intercept points ( and hence the area where they would be dropping ) usually a rural area far from a metropolis ( when ever possible that is)? i was making a reference to those instances where it baffled you as to why they kept the tanks. they would have dumped them prior to a run so barring a mechanical malfunction...why did they keep them? later in the was when a lot of squadrons were out hunting they bounced a lot of unsuspecting LW ac all over the country....many time whilst strafing airfields and train yards.

 

[jayastout]

Neil did a good job with his overview but after seeing the episode completely several times I almost puked it was full of errors or unfinished statements that were needed to take one to the next level of understanding.

Jay you need to take up German as this is really the only way you will get a true nature of the Kommando and Sturmstaffel 1/Sturmgruppen in books detailing this subject matter, there is nothing and I mean nothing worthy in English so far.

Yes, it's sad that good-intentioned interviewees can have their words butchered and arranged in such a way as to ruin the original intent. I've done interviews before and been really discouraged with what was used.

I need to do a lot of things...learning German would be one of them. Sadly, it won't happen before I finish this next book. I'll simply have to be extra careful about what I find and use.

 

[seesul]

sorry but the German philosophy abhoars in this case giving of oneself in air combat by ramming to the death. may or may not help but I know Oskar and Fritz, have for many years. When Sonderkommando Elbe was shown Fritz was pretty upset with the history channel for not translating some of the German language from two of his kameraden correctly, (they were not done speaking when they were cut-off), he even wrote me asking me what he should do as this was the reason and the only reason thinking the History channel would do the utmost to represent his unit truthfully..............nope.

Neil did a good job with his overview but after seeing the episode completely several times I almost puked it was full of errors or unfinished statements that were needed to take one to the next level of understanding.

Jay you need to take up German as this is really the only way you will get a true nature of the Kommando and Sturmstaffel 1/Sturmgruppen in books detailing this subject matter, there is nothing and I mean nothing worthy in English so far.

Hi Erich,

I can imagine Fritz´s upset. I´ve been in touch with him too since 2 years ago and can say that he´s willing to talk about his experience...
One question Erich - why is yours and Neil´s web about Sturmgruppen not active anymore?

For jayastout - Fritz speaks English way better than me so should you be interested just PM me for his e-mail address...

 

[stona]

E,

Oh i understand that. but wasnt the intercept points ( and hence the area where they would be dropping ) usually a rural area far from a metropolis ( when ever possible that is)?

The interception took place where it took place,the interceptors would have no idea what was beneath them.The first task was to assemble,usually over a geographical feature of some type,maybe a town. The interceptors,now in formation,would attempt to manoeuvre themselves into a suitable position for an attack which could take some time. Once this was achieved they would,in theory, make the interception. They sometimes did not,particularly against heavily escorted formations. As the bomber formation was moving at considerable speed over the ground the actual interception point was not predictable.
You will have noticed the red lettering on Luftwaffe drop tanks. This,apart from the obvious "Not a Bomb" information also offers a reward for the return of the tank.
Here's a document drawn up from PoW interrogations.

You'll notice from one of my earlier posts that allied pilots also sometimes entered combat with drop tanks attached. I have absolutely no clue as to why they would do that,barring a failiure to jettison.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Erich]

drop tanks were dropped wherever there was a bomber formation to attack inbound, over target IP or target and outbound so it did not matter, just as stona has stated.

Roman the Sturmgruppen web-site was removed as all of them were off the compuserve.com. they were no longer offering the web-space as I understand it to non profitable web-link/sites. Neil got very busy with translating and I got involved sadly with Familie problems and trying to slowly put together my book projects for release which are still sitting on the floor.

 

[Njaco]

Hate how life interferes like that!

Erich, whats your take on "The Last Flight of the Luftwaffe" by Weir?