Luftwaffe Pilots - Sanctioned to Bail Out?

[Erich]

best book on the mission yet released. Fritz was wanting to have his own website on the mission as well as on operation Steinbock. super guy my interest in him actually was his service before the volunteering for the April 45 mission, earlier he was in the NJG 101 training and supplementing night fighter unit of which I was keenly searching for info. : 9./NJG 101 in summer of 44 before he went to day fighter training in 4./JG 104 in August 1944.

 

[Ratsel]

ahhh yes I remember that HC episode.. HC really screwed the pooch on that one..

 

[Njaco]

Just found this on wiki.

"During the Battle of Britain the question of killing enemy pilots while in their parachutes was raised. In another conversation with Göring, Galland recalled:

Göring wanted to know if we had ever thought about this. "Jawohl, Herr Reichsmarschall!" He looked me straight in the eyes and said, "What would you think of an order to shoot down pilots who were bailing out? "I should regard it as murder, Herr Reichsmarschall", I told him, "I should do everything in my power to disobey such an order". "That is just the reply I had expected from you, Galland"."

Quote is attributed to Kaplan 2007, p. 15.

anyone verify?

 

[Ratsel]

Did Galland also say the same in his book? along with "Leg Operation" (Operation Leg Drop).

 

[parsifal]

i'll show my ignorance here..."Operation Leg Drop"...what was that?

 

[Ratsel]

part of the story:

' German forces treated Bader with great respect. When he bailed out, Bader's right prosthetic leg became trapped in the aircraft, and he escaped only when the leg's retaining straps snapped after he pulled the ripcord on his parachute. General Adolf Galland, a German flying ace, notified the British of his damaged leg and offered them safe passage to drop off a replacement. Hermann Göring himself gave the green light for the operation. The British responded on 19 August 1941 with the "Leg Operation"—an RAF bomber was allowed to drop a new prosthetic leg by parachute to St Omer, a Luftwaffe base in occupied France, as part of Circus 81 involving six Bristol Blenheims and a sizeable fighter escort. The Germans were less impressed when, task done, the bombers proceeded on to their bombing mission to Gosnay power station near Bethune, although bad weather prevented the target being attacked. Galland stated in an interview that the aircraft dropped the leg after bombing Galland's airfield. Galland did not meet Bader again until the summer, 1945, when he, Günther Rall and Hans-Ulrich Rudel arrived at RAF Tangmere as prisoners of war. Bader, according to Rall, personally arranged for Rudel, a fellow amputee, to be fitted with an artificial leg. '

 

[jayastout]

From what I've read and heard about relationships between the Germans, the British and the Americans, on a face-to-face basis, they generally treated each other pretty well. In the book (The Men Who Killed the Luftwaffe), I covered the story of a P-39 pilot (Hugh Dow) who downed an Me-109 pilot and subsequently drove out into the desert to recover him from the French soldiers that had captured him. Everyone was cordial and professional.

 

[stona]

This photo of J J Caulton and H-J Jabs says a lot. New Zealander Caulton and Jabs had shot each other down. I think Caulton looks uncomfortable. Jabs had shot down and killed Caulton's squadron mate P/O Pullin in the same engagement.

The two men became firm friends much later after the war.
Pilots on both sides were often men of similar backgrounds who,had there not been a war,would have had much in common. This picture of Caulton's Spitfire was supposedly given to him by Jabs.

Steve

 

[Erich]

all except for Me 262 pilots. I have several US Mustang pilot notations to take out the jet pilots at all costs................ maybe a bit bizarre but I can see and feel the almost helpless feeling trying to engage these streaks as they came through the bomber formations hoping you could have a height advantage and somehow turn inside one of these suckers.

 

[bobbysocks]

in most of my readings...which is not near as extensive and most of you...but there are numerous accounts of LW pilots when finding out there were downed allied airmen captured...would show up and "rescue" them. they would get them to a luft stalag rather than the regular prison camps...or in several cases they actually saved their lives from the civilians who wished to hang, stone, or beat them to death...and unfortuntely that fate of allied airmen was not a rare occurance.

 

[stona]

There was a plethora of police and security organisations in the Third Reich and you are correct to say that it was important for a downed allied airman,particularly later in the war,to surrender to one of them,or at least be quickly handed over to them.Let's be honest here,most of these airmen had no intention of evading capture or walking to Switzerland! Cases of beatings and killings were almost invariably carried out by civilians,though some airmen were saved by civilian 'officials' like a local Burgermeister.
Reading personal accounts it seems that some Luftwaffe officers would 'borrow' a prisoner who was already safely in custody at a local Police post or similar. I'm not sure they could do this so easily once the prisoner had entered the PoW system. The prisoner would first go to a transit camp before,as airmen transferring to a 'Durchgangslager der Luftwaffe',abbreviated to'Dulag Luft'.This is where the Luftwaffe intelligence gathering and interrogation took place. These camps were run by and were under the control of the Luftwaffe. Eventually they would be transferred to a 'Luftwaffe-Stammlager' more familiar to movie watchers as a 'Stalag Luft'.

Assaults on airmen didn't just happen in Germany.There is at least one case of a badly wounded Luftwaffe airman being badly beaten before he was rescued by the Metropolitan Police. He had parachuted into a park in London. He later died of his wounds but the beating can't have helped much.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Njaco]

It happened many times with LW crews as well. The date is pretty important.

Wolfgang Schellmann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"On 22 June 1941, the opening day of Operation Barbarossa, Schellmann's Bf 109E collided with a I-153 Chaykahe piloted by a Lt Kuzmin after he had just destroyed his 26th victim, a I-16. Kuzmin was killed in the collision but Schellmann managed to bail out over Soviet territory. Attempting to make his way back to German lines he was captured and later killed by NKVD troops."

 

[jayastout]

Stona,

Is that document readily available anywhere?

Regards,
Jay

 

[drgondog]

in most of my readings...which is not near as extensive and most of you...but there are numerous accounts of LW pilots when finding out there were downed allied airmen captured...would show up and "rescue" them. they would get them to a luft stalag rather than the regular prison camps...or in several cases they actually saved their lives from the civilians who wished to hang, stone, or beat them to death...and unfortuntely that fate of allied airmen was not a rare occurance.

There are many examples of USAAF crews being rescued by LW flak crews, German military personnel, etc.

There were reverse scenarios.

I also know personally one 355th pilot that surrendered his .45 to a SS Leiutnant who then shot him in the gut and left him to die. A German priest got him to a doctor and together they hid him from the SS Troopers around Ansbach until the end of the war. Bill Cullerton is alive today.

 

[bobbysocks]

did they ever catch the SS officer? i know a case where a 357th pilot was killed by a civilain. the act was witnessed but another person in the town. after the war an inquiry was made and they tracked down that civilian and he was convicted ( of a war crime ? ) and executed.

 

[drgondog]

I don't know. This was April 4, 1945, who knows?

BTW the two 357FG pilots that collided with their victim Me110s on April 24, 1944 were Donnell and Connaghan. Connaghan was seen to bail out but did not survive the war and Donnell wa sPOW

 

[Ratsel]

posted in the wrong thread lol

 

[stona]

Not sure what document you mean Jay!

After the war the Royal Military Police went after those involved in the execution of PoWs who were re-captured after the 'great escape'. If my memory is correct thirteen people were hanged as a result of those investigations.

Cheers
Steve

 

[bobbysocks]

during the course of this conversation i did a quick half @$$ed look throught the one fighter group's loses to see what were the most prevelant causes. wrecks/collisions was #1...now that encompassed everything....training, coming back from missions (possibly shot up or low on fuel ), some bad weather, and collisions possibly in combat. you think about a fur ball with some 30 to 60 planes...each going 300+ mph with machinegun and cannon rounds whipping around as well....just not a healthy place to be. anyways, enemy fighters was 2nd and flak came in 3rd.

 

[Erich]

Interesting comment D ~

the closest thing for the LW fighters was their S/E attempts at night fighting where they were terrible at overclaiming.................. accidents and landing and taking off and running out of fuel were tops with these pilots and of course one of the important issues if not well scheduled in blind flying was the terrible winter weather at night.