Luftwaffe's ideal night fighter: you are in charge

[tomo pauk]

Okay, since we expect 1000-bomber raids, during the night, any time in 1942 (ie. within 18-24 months after this futile air assault vs. UK) to occur vs. Fatherland, the world's best night fighter must be constructed. What would your ideal LW's NF looked like? Of course, you can 'draw' an ideal NF for 1943-44-45's bits pieces too.

 

[Erich]

the "neu" Me 262B-2a with Berlin 240 radar and enclosed streamlined fuel cells. Good bye Bomber Command

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... the "neu" Me 262B-2a with Berlin 240 radar and enclosed streamlined fuel cells."

I tend to agree -- operating as a night fighter does a lot to reduce the weakness (landings) that the 262 faced during daylight ops. A very compact package with the right punch. How visible were the engine exhaust flames at night ..?

MM

 

[woljags]

personally any of the later nightfighters ie heinkel 219 or dornier 335 given the resources to push them through quicker in bigger numbers would have made a difference

 

[tomo pauk]

All very fine planes, but what should've been built for 1942, for example?

 

[Ratsel]

The Luftwaffe already had the Me262.. so that would be the logical choise. In whatever numbers as the engines allowed. As Erich said.. Goodbye BC.

 

[fastmongrel]

Ju 88 with DB603 engines Schrage Musik and a centimetric radar outfit with a passive tail mounted radar detector. Why waste a 500mph Me 262 on 200mph bombers, what you need is sufficent speed to get to the bomber stream and good endurance to stay in the stream and cause havoc. The 262 is barely going to be able to stay aloft long enough to catch the stream never mind stick with it for up to 2 hours.

 

[Erich]

you didn't read my posting did you ......... ? the 262 NF was going under major re-design changes as I have the tech readout and spec schematics for my book the fuel cells would have given the jet enough endurance to blow Mossie and 4 engines out of the skies. as per 1942 there was no other options at that time to re-equip the Bf 110 and Ju 88 into a viable death machine, radar was in it's infancy. nothing in the present Allied arsenal was going to catch either one at night.

the Ju 88G-6 was already in full swing by January 45 so no need to press further except to play games with BC and the use of updated A-I. the jet was of the future and the LW was looking into this besides updating an armored front Ar 234 for defense as well.

 

[Crimea_River]

personally any of the later nightfighters ie heinkel 219 or dornier 335 given the resources to push them through quicker in bigger numbers would have made a difference

The 219 never got the DB 613 engines it was designed around. IMO, the ideal NF for this timeframe would have been the 219, mass produced with the promised engines. The 262's closing speed on the slower bombers at night would have been a real handful to master and it wouldn't have been capable of carrying the SM hardware.

 

[Ratsel]

With the cover of night coming from astern I don't think a 350kph-400kph speed is out of the question. Assuming the engines don't grenade from playing with the throttle. The 4xMk108 will take care of the rest.

 

[tomo pauk]

.... as per 1942 there was no other options at that time to re-equip the Bf 110 and Ju 88 into a viable death machine, radar was in it's infancy. nothing in the present Allied arsenal was going to catch either one at night.

...

Perhaps Beaufighter would be able to catch LW NF (either 88 or 110) in 1942, historically?

 

[Erich]

the 262 was to have the MK 108's removed and the SM installed as standard fit so you see gents even by these calculations the craft was able to slow down to perform the LW nf function of hit and run for longer periods of time, we have to get out of the mind mode of early 1945 when the two seater still had not proved itself and the useage of silly twin outboard nose fuel tanks. the He 219 was to be phased out in fact so was the 110G-4 it was going nowhere in 1945 because of the Mossie threat the 219 carrying two crew had to be spotted for a third and where ws he located in the experiments...............mid way down the fuselage by his lonesome. the jet was on the verge . . .

 

[Shortround6]

Brand new starting from scratch?

Twin DB 601Es with enough allowance for 605s when they show up. Two seats side by side (better crew co-operation and an extra pair of eyes out the front). Space for electronics. A pair of cannon firing up and a pair of cannon in the bottom of the fuselage firing forward where they won't blind the pilot. Fit it with Fowler flaps or something to keep landing speed down.

They didn't need a super Mosquito killer. They needed a plane with enough performance to get into the bomber stream and shoot up enough British bombers in 1942 to make them think that the night bombing plan was a bad idea. They need numbers of their own and it needs to be serviceable, low maintenance, and easy to fly.

 

[Erich]

reason for the Neu 262 to come into being 4 2cm weapons rectified glimmspur ammo not to blind the pilot, many things were thought of too late to see service thankfully for the Allies

in any case the Ju 88G-6 already filled the bill enough it should of replaced all Bf 110G-4 junk by 1945 beginnings as the rear warning radar was standard and enough eyes to see everything, updating MW injection to blast forthwith even with a good mid altitude. there is even evidence that a crew of two was flown with extra fuel tank to go from one of the German proper to the other ..........

 

[tomo pauk]

Something lighter/smaller than a Bf-110, SR6?

 

[Shortround6]

A bit smaller and lighter. Germans too often tried for the best vs "good enough" and the best fell through so they tried to make do with things that weren't quite "good enough" while waiting for the next big break through.

The increase in weight of about 5000lbs from the 110F to the 110G certainly didn't help things.

 

[davebender]

The Me-110 is fine for 1942.

Next generation night fighter engines.
- Jets are unproven technology during 1942. Cannot count on them.
- DB603 engine program has been hamstrung by RLM. Cannot count on it being available in adequate numbers.
- Jumo213 development was surprisingly slow. Cannot count on it as of 1942.
- V24 engine programs were cancelled for all practical purposes during the fall of 1942. Cannot count on them.
- 1942 versions of the BMW801 engine were hardly world beaters. Furthermore production was small. Cannot count on them.
- Jumo211 and DB605 engines were mature technology and available in huge numbers.
- Daimler-Benz was investing serious effort into making the DB605 engine even more powerful and reliable.
.....Decision. The next generation night fighter will be powered by DB605 engines.

Weapons.
WWII era night fighting was a point blank business. A pair of forward firing 3cm Mk108 cannon will kill anything at a range of 100 meters. May be supplemented by a pair of lightweight 2cm MG FF cannon slant firing weapons.

WWII Germany had plenty of aluminum. No need to piddle around with wood as the RAF and VVS were forced to do.

Now for the next generation airframe.
RLM is providing great support for the Me-210 program and DB605 engine program. It's the obvious choice. However if this option is chosen the Me-210 night fighter will be considerably different from the Me-210 dive bomber. Essentially it will be Me-210 wings and engines with an entirely new fuselage. Might be different enough to receive a new designation (other then Me-210).
.....No dive brakes.
.....No bomb bay.
.....No structural strengthening required for dive bombing.
.....Fuselage internal area will be arranged to provide space for radar and other specialized equipment.
.....Aircraft electrical system beefed up to provide power for electronic equipment.

IMO there is another good possibility.
Dornier Do 335 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In May 1942, Dornier submitted an updated version with a 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) bombload as the P.231, in response to a requirement for a single seat high-speed bomber/intruder. P.231 was selected as the winner after beating rival designs from Arado, Junkers, and Blohm Voss development contract was awarded as the Do 335. In autumn 1942, Dornier was told that the Do 335 was no longer required, and instead a multi-role fighter based on the same general layout would be accepted

From the late 1930s onward Dornier tried hard to get an aircraft contract that employed his tandem engine technology. Why not a two seat tandem engine night fighter? This would be considerably different from the historical Do-335.
.....DB605 engines.
.....No bomb bay or structural strengthening required to carry bombs.
.....Enough electrical power for all the electronic equipment.
.....Enough internal space for all the electronic equipment.

 

[Erich]

for 1942 and the LW the Ju 88C-6 had already proved itself by 1941 with the Ferenachtjagd over England, too bad the silly Austrian called them off as it would of really set the Allies back in a hole not definitely but the overabundance of nuisance raids were causing major concerns of the times. NJG 2 being pulled back to bolster poor Mussolini in Italy, one of the stupidest moves yet made in the war efforts

 

[vikingBerserker]

If timing was not an issue, I wonder how the Ar 234P would have performed with the 4 engines. Good size with enough room for extra crewmen and plenty of fire power.

 

[davebender]

I agree. But but a night intruder is a different mission then an aircraft required to shoot down enemy bombers over your own territory in cooperation with ground based radar.

IMO the historical Me-210C and Me-410A are probably the best bets for a next generation German night intruder aircraft.