Luftwaffe's ideal night fighter: you are in charge

[Erich]

Dave the Me 410A was the standard fighter not bomber variant, it just did not work for the LW NF force and they refused it much like NJG 3 with the He 219 A-5 and A-7's only I./NJG 1 used it to some potential, plus about 4 to portions of NJGr 10.

the Ju 88C-6 variant getting back to your earlier posting indeed used the Lich radar sets in both intruder and NF against BC over the Reich and even in 41 should of replaced the faulting Do 17's and earlier Bf 110 variants. I go back again to my proposal of blasting the English airfields to oblivion that no Allied heavy bomber English or US could take off from, so therefore a 1942 LW NF would not be needed for the future .........

 

[davebender]

How many "standard fighter aircraft" had a bomb bay, dive brakes and a dive bomber site?

 

[tomo pauk]

How would German (night or day?) bombers gotten through - they have had a hard time even in 1940?

 

[Erich]

the A was the standard fighter A/C of the Me 410 with weapons fitting for the ZG's during late 43.

ask the British at the time how in 1941 the NJG 2 the only NJG 2 to come over inland did so well against the BC bombers both hunting them over their A/F's and bombing them to pieces on the ground, even with the NJG's in their smallness of that time frame the impact they could have done. The Austrian always knowing the best for the German war effort moved the Geschwader to no-mans land.

Imagine over 25 Geschwader performing nightly intruder raids to places unknown besides Allied A/F's.

 

[stona]

I go back again to my proposal of blasting the English airfields to oblivion that no Allied heavy bomber English or US could take off from, so therefore a 1942 LW NF would not be needed for the future .........

And how exactly are you going to do that? With commitments in the Mediterranean and Russia and with the same total number of aircraft with which the Luftwaffe failed to defeat the RAF in 1940,operating on only one front,this is just pie in the sky.
There was a monumental failiure in German planning,someone has already suggested that the war was lost in 1937. In late 1941 Anglo-American production totals exceded Germany's by 400% for single engined fighters,169% for twin engined aircraft and 4,033% for four engined aircraft. German production was barely covering losses and allied air forces were rapidly expanding. I've not even included the Soviet production.
They couldn't have blasted English airfields in 1941/2 with less forces than they attempted the task in 1940 and faced with far stronger opposition. They might have succeeded in achieving an even higher rate of attrition of Luftwaffe forces than they were already suffereing.
Cheers
Steve

 

[riacrato]

Just for the heck of it: Bf 109Z with 3 MK108, no machine guns. Don't know if it had been possible to fit in all the equipment, though.

 

[Erich]

it was already proven Steve that at night the British forces were un-prepared for a total onslaught I fully understand the victory of BoB during DAYLIGHT hours.

I interviewed both sides back in the early 1970's over this very issue I present but quickly not wishing to get OT it was entirely possible. we can argue of course of this what-if and get nowhere............ my point is thus in 41-42 quite a different story than in late 44-45 where BC had a tried and true in effect defense system, though it's major move was drawing out the LW on their own territory which they did marvelously. remember the operations by LW night fighters over England during spring of 45 with too few A/C at their disposal.

 

[tomo pauk]

While the concept of battling BC bombers over home turf in 1941/2 has merit, how would 25 squadrons of Ju-88s fared when contested by 40 squadrons of Beaufighters?

 

[stona]

I don't buy it. Luftwaffe losses on the Eastern front alone were averaging 268 bombers a month (32.1%) between June and November 1941. In commision rates were rarely above 50%. The percentage of fully operational crews was rarely over 60%. Where were the aircraft and crews. for this onslaught going to come from? The total establishment was roughly the same as 1940. Infact the Luftwaffe in June 1941 had 200 less bombers,now spread over three fronts,than it did in May 1940 for the assault on Britain.
Such an assault on British airfields may have been possible tactically but the Luftwaffe did not have the means to carry it out. It was already on the slippery slope to defeat. The determination and bravery of its pilots and sometimes brilliant leadership at medium and lower levels could not compensate for the lack of long term production and strategic planning.
Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

Roughly 2,500 aircraft. Even with a 50% available rate you are talking about over 1,000 Me-410s. That many night intruders would just get in each others way.

If Germany had over 1,000 light bombers available for operations against Britain you might as well load the aircraft with cluster munitions to attack all the parked Allied aircraft. Escort them with 100 night fighters to help suppress RAF night fighter defenses.

 

[stona]

The Luftwaffe had 1,511 bombers (excluding Ju87) available in ALL theatres as of June 21 1941. If 60% (optimistic) were operational,and had crews available that gives a total available of well less than 1000 aircraft. The vast majority were already comitted in the East,tied to the armies there,with significant numbers also in the Mediterranean.
At the same time they had a total of 188 twin engined fighters and 263 night fighters,again in all theatres. I suppose they could have flown (and probably crashed) some of their 1,440 single engined fighters!
Whilst these raids might have been tactically possible,it's hard to see how the RAF could have countered them,the thousand aircraft mentioned above simply didn't (and never would) exist.
Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

I agree.

Late 1930s Germany would need a serious shift in production priorities to build a force similiar in size to RAF Bomber Command, even if the attacking aircraft are light bombers such as Ju-88s and Me-410s. You need aircraft, airfields, fuel, aircrew, munitions etc. The entire vast program which allowed Britain to put 1,000 bombers over Europe per night.

Personally I think a single Geschwader of light bombers permanently assigned to the night intruder mission would be plenty to give the RAF a serious headache.

 

[Erich]

you cannot take reality and apply it truthfully to this what-if scenario. you mention eastern front bomber losses - nothing to do with the topic header, 45 squadrons of Beaus to 25 C-6's, c'mon back to it shall we............. 1942 the British did NOT have the night defense capabilites because the NJG 2 was removed then the Allies could then re-invent the wheel for their own.

to the topic

1942 to be honest and factual and not design your own flop the LW had nada, 0 to their holdings, a few tired Bf 110F's and some Do 17's, 217's big and heavy and Ju 88C-6's which were the best of the breed at the time. forget what the Allies had as this has really nothing to do with the topic header- start another one if you would prefer.

man we get off so easily.............

oh well thread over . . . .

 

[davebender]

From the late 1930s Germany produced a single low cost yet effective day fighter in ever increasing numbers. Half way through the war this was supplemented by a second low cost yet effective day fighter.

From 1939 onward Germany used Me-109s, Fw-190s, Me-110s, Do-215s, Do-217s, Ju-88s, Fw-189s and probably a few other aircraft types for night fighter missions. Pretty much anything that could fly was assigned to the night fighter force at one time or another.

Why can't the German night fighter force adopt the same method as the day fighter force? A single low cost yet effective aircraft type produced in large numbers.

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... Why can't the German night fighter force adopt the same method as the day fighter force? A single low cost yet effective aircraft type produced in large numbers."

They can but for ....

... politics. Nazi Politics.

MM

 

[Ratsel]

Maybe becouse German Flak had sensitive German areas well covered and there was no need to 'Adopt' any day fighters for this single purpose. They modified as nessesary. I think they got more organized night fighter units when BC adopted the policy of firebombing civilians living at non-military areas.

If the fat man just continued on for a few more weeks during the BoB, BC would have been a non-issue.

 

[davebender]

I fail to see your logic.

"Nazi Politics" produced a single low cost yet effective day fighter. Why can't "Nazi Politics" produce a single low cost yet effective night fighter?

 

[Kryten]

well first off would'nt the Ju88 have been the most cost effective as it was in mass production, and therefore easier to build?
secondly, anything smaller than an 88 and your going to have packaging issues surely? all those radar sets and recievers were quite bulky in ww2 , so would the 88 be more practical in regard to maintenance and build costs when installing all these gizmos?

I am aware the me110 etc ws used as a night fighter but wasn't the 88 the most successfull?

 

[Edgar Brooks]

I think they got more organized night fighter units when BC adopted the policy of firebombing civilians living at non-military areas.

You missed one word out of that statement:- "when BC adopted the NAZI policy of firebombing civilians living at non-military areas."
Edgar

 

[Ratsel]

ahhh NAZI politics. The only parts of the German armed forces that followed NAZI politics to the letter was the Waffen SS. The German armed forces as a whole, even during WWII did not follow/endorse any political party despite how hard some want to believe that. The FAT MAN, as stupid as his morphine addicted pea-sized brain was, didn't agree with every aspect of NAZI politics.