Luftwaffe's ideal night fighter: you are in charge

[Edgar Brooks]

Well, strangely enough, it's very difficult to understand, when your friends and relatives are being blasted to bits, "Oh, that's alright, they're not really Nazis, so they don't really want to kill us." Stop playing semantics; if you fight for an ideology, you support that ideology.

 

[johnbr]

How about the Arado 440 with 4 mk 103 in the fuselage 2 20mm in the wings.

 

[vanir]

I agree.

Which is why I favor a Me-210C / Me-210D variant with the fuselage built specifically for the night fighter role. Interior space should be similiar to the Me-110. Not as spacious as the Ju-88 but it's adequate. Aerial performance with late war DB605 engines producing 1,800 to 2,000 hp should be superior. Fast enough that RAF path finder Mosquitoes cannot assume they are uncatchable. If mass produced an Me-210 should also be less expensive then the larger Ju-88G.

Yeah I'm leaning towards this. Me-410 production replaced 210 at the factory but was only an engine change to the 603 which is better for our nightfighter, the airframe stability changes had already been implemented in Me-210 jigs since early 1943, Hungarian 210Ca licensed production for example all used the late stable airframes from the beginning.

An Me-410 with rear gunner turned into a radar operator and a belly pack of 4x Mk103 with muzzlebrakes and flash suppressors (existing fit for the type) now there's a deadly plane.
And I don't see why a nightfighter needs a 3 man crew. Pilot/gunner and RIO/navigator.

In a 410 the Mk103 is just fine, but be nice if those Mk213 revolver guns entered production, what were they, 1200rpm-cyclic per gun in 30mm it seems (according to Karlo Kopp).

 

[davebender]

IMO that was a mistake. The larger DB603 engine increases aircraft payload. However DB603 engines were in short supply right through the end of the war. Consequently only 1,160 Me-410s were manufactured over a two year period before production ended during September 1944. An average of about 50 Me-410s per month.

The Luftwaffe needs at least 100 purpose built night fighter aircraft per month in addition to the 50 Me-410s. Our night fighter variant must be powered by DB605 or Jumo211 engines as that's all we have available in quantity. IMO that's not so horrible. The Hungarian Me-210C performed just fine powered by 1,475hp DB605A engines and more powerful DB605 engine versions are on the horizon.

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... Nazi Politics" produced a single low cost yet effective day fighter. Why can't "Nazi Politics" produce a single low cost yet effective night fighter?"

Yes - and politics produced the Ju-88 as well. Politics however sometimes avoids "reality". The Germans needed "a single low cost yet effective night fighter" but didn't focus on that priority until it was too late. And then they had too many candidates and not enough production, aircrew or infrastructure. In 1939 Britain had its "infrastructure" in place for airwar - Germany didn't.

MM

 

[davebender]

The 1939 RAF had it's problems too. You don't get the benefit of hindsight in the real world. The RAF and Luftwaffe both muddled through the war as best they could. Both air forces had strengths and weaknesses.

 

[DonL]

The Luftwaffe needs at least 100 purpose built night fighter aircraft per month in addition to the 50 Me-410s. Our night fighter variant must be powered by DB605 or Jumo211 engines as that's all we have available in quantity. IMO that's not so horrible. The Hungarian Me-210C performed just fine powered by 1,475hp DB605A engines and more powerful DB605 engine versions are on the horizon.

There are only two outstanding designs which can perform with DB 605 or Jumo 211.

1. The FW 187 with DB 605.
The problem is, it's speculative if the radar equipment can be cramped in the small FW 187.

2. The Ta 154 showed very good performance as Ta 154 A-1 with nightfighter equipment and Jumo 211 F/N.

That's the only designs which showed enough performance with this engines and could match with a Mosquito.

The Me 210 was a design failure and wasn't much faster as the Me 110 with the same engines!

 

[krieghund]

If we stick to the topic of meeting the threat in 42-43 then the Arado Ar240A series with DB601E appears to be the most promising..first flown in 1940 and entering LRIP in 1942 it has a max speed of 384 at 19685 ft and a range of 1242 miles @ 345. Imagine the range if flown at less than max continuous power. The dive brakes were already being dispensed with but I would remove the Barbette gun turrets to save weight and space. Also remove the cameras from the engine nacelles. The aircraft has a good turn of speed and endurance persistence and has an already established upgrade path .

The Ar240B series with DB605 was flown late 1942 and had MW50 incorporated. The Ar240C series with DB603A started in mid 1943. The last version Ar440 with DB603 was flown the summer of 1942 with a speed of 467 at 36000ft with GM1.

Of course this aircraft was plagued by the same syndrome other good types had in Germany----RLM seeing the world via their bellybutton!!

 

[stona]

Well said Edgar. If you press a panel or bang in a rivet you are also supporting it. To win a war against Germany you kill Germans.
It doesn't look nice written down because it isn't. We're talking about a war.

you cannot take reality and apply it truthfully to this what-if scenario.

I like the Me410 as a night fighter. As it's a what if you might as well give them several hundred of these,which they couldn't actually produce,armed with weapons systems that didn't exist at the time to blast Bomber Command from the skys!
Of course I'll give bomber command a new jet engined heavy bomber that the new fighters can't catch.
I'll also give the Luftwaffe a few hundred four engined bombers to blast Bomber Command air fields,but then I'll give Fighter Command RAF five hundred night fighters that can shoot them down.
Even in a 'what if' the reality of the situation has to be taken into account!
Cheers
Steve

 

[riacrato]

Why would anyone want to use a MK103? You can't use the extra range at night you only expose your position and mark yourself a target.

 

[stona]

Why would anyone want to use a MK103? You can't use the extra range at night you only expose your position and mark yourself a target.

A good point. A weapon is only as good as its sighting system which is why the RAF considered the effective range of its .303 calibre machine guns to be the same as .50 calibre machine guns day and night.
Extra range at night is even more of a problem.

Cheers
Steve

 

[DonL]

If we stick to the topic of meeting the threat in 42-43 then the Arado Ar240A series with DB601E appears to be the most promising..first flown in 1940 and entering LRIP in 1942 it has a max speed of 384 at 19685 ft and a range of 1242 miles @ 345. Imagine the range if flown at less than max continuous power. The dive brakes were already being dispensed with but I would remove the Barbette gun turrets to save weight and space. Also remove the cameras from the engine nacelles. The aircraft has a good turn of speed and endurance persistence and has an already established upgrade path .

The Ar240 showed very poor handling all her lifetime with three or four different prototypes with 3 different engines and was in a "permanent correction" to get a better handling.
I doubt that the Ar 240 was a promising design, it was too much destroyer and light bomber then heavy fighter or nightfighter.

The Ar240B series with DB605 was flown late 1942 and had MW50 incorporated.

The MW 50 showed up at 1944 for the DB 605A not in 1942.

I like the Me410 as a night fighter.

The Me 410 was directly derived from the Me 210 but without the design failures of the Me 210, anyway it was an underperformer and was much much in need of the DB 603 or Jumo 213 to achieve any performance. This design was also too much light bomber and destroyer then heavy fighter.

For example the Ta 154 as V2 with Jumo 211F/N achieve better performance, full equipped as nightfighter (with Lichtenstein, full ammo and cannons) as the Me 410 A-1 as dayfighter!
Also the He 219 and the Ju 88 G reach better performances with the same engines then the Me 410 even though they were much larger.

The whole Me 210/410 development from 1937 till 1944 was nothing but crap and a massive waste of resources.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... The RAF and Luftwaffe both muddled through the war as best they could. Both air forces had strengths and weaknesses."

Didn't say otherwise DB - made no claims for superiority or perfection - simply stated a FACT. As a result of the Zeppelin Raids in WW1 Britain had experienced the terror of civilian bombing and had worked to install a fairly thoughtful, competent early warning system and fighter control - to which radar was added. I do not believe the same claim can be made about German air defenses in September 1939. If you know otherwise DB please share .... otherwise ....

MM

 

[DonL]

Kammhuber Line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[krieghund]

DonL

The MW 50 showed up at 1944 for the DB 605A not in 1942.



According to "Ar240 Luftwaffe Profile Series No. 8" states Ar240 V-7 flew Oct 1942 and Ar240 V-8 flew Dec 1942 both equipped with DB605A with MW-50. All further produced aircraft were equipped with versions of the Db603A.

 

[Shortround6]

The Luftwaffe didn't need a super Mosquito killer in 1942. It needed more night fighters of practically any type, night fighter crews with more faith in the equipment and a little less faith in the MK I eyeball and a control system that could control more than one fighter at a time in a "BOX".
The RAF at the start of 1942 only had about 400 first line machines and the first 1000 bomber raid was only possible by using large numbers of Whitleys and Hampdens from training units and using instructors and student pilots as crews. Blenheims were still being used to bomb the night fighter airfields.
Even the Me 110E/F if available in decent numbers ( and with modifications to crew training and the control system) could have inflected many more casualties on Bomber Command. The 1000 plane raid on Cologne was a PR stunt to get more funding/support for Bomber Command. According to Wiki 1047 planes took part, 868 bombed the main target, dropping just 1,455 tons of bombs and the British lost 43/44 aircraft (3.9%) "The losses were 22 aircraft were lost over or near Cologne, 16 shot down by flak, 4 by night fighters, 2 in a collision and 2 Bristol Blenheim light bombers lost in attacks on night fighter airfields"

A night fighter force that could have shot down 30 planes instead of 4 would have pushed the loss rate to 7% and shifted it into the unsustainable area.

 

[riacrato]

Hence I'd suggest using the Bf 110 for the major part of '42 and gradually replacing it by Ju 88s and Bf 109Zs. The commonality of the 109Z with the daylight versions F through K should be kept as high as possible to ensure sufficient numbers are available.
If the Bf 109Z-based NF turns out to be a turd, you have the Ju 88 as a working backup. No need to invest in projects like Ar 240, Me 210/410, Ta 154, He 219 although if possible I'd go through with one of the more modern (Ta 154 or He 219) as a "just in case" project. Eventhough it failed in the end, I'd probably also choose Ta 154 over the He 219, simply for the fact that it's cheaper.

 

[krieghund]

I thought now would be a good time to put the candidates in perspective;

 

[DonL]

@ Kriegshund

Some fast question about the Ta 154 to your chart, i will study it later for all modells.

Ther Arnament of the Ta 154 A4 (as Nightfighter) was 2 x MG 151/20, 2 x MK 108 (to the front) and 2 x MK 108 as "Schräge Musik"

The top speed of the the A4 eith Jumo 213E was 650 km/h or faster, depends of which radar was used.
With the Jumo 211N the Ta 154 was 625 km/h fast as full equiped night fighter.

Fuel consumption: In your chart the DB 603 has a lower fuel consumption as the Jumo 213!
This is wrong. The Jumo 213 has the lowest specific fuel consumption of all german piston engines.

My inforfamition come from:
http://www.amazon.de/dp/392769746X/?tag=dcglabs-20
Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke: Amazon.de: Kyrill von Gersdorff, Helmut Schubert, Kurt Grasmann: Bücher

 

[Siegfried]

You missed one word out of that statement:- "when BC adopted the NAZI policy of firebombing civilians living at non-military areas." Edgar

I think its correct to say Bomber Command, as a result of the "Area Bombardment" policy implemented a policy of unprecedented attacks on civilians (Destrution of 80 of Germany's biggest cities). The euphemisms such as "Dehousing" and "Demoralisation" are indications of the targets were human. Arthur Harris, honest to the core, makes no quibbles about it and often makes the point that no specific target was chosen, such as when Lubeck was fire bombed.

That the Luftwaffe attacked cities and used incendiaries is without doubt, however the cities did have valid targets, which were specifically targeted and were chosen for specific reasons to support immediate tactical or strategic goals.

RAF raids on German cities (targets in and around Munich) began the day after the Luftwaffe bombed parts of Rotterdam. British propaganda caste the attack as a reprisal for Rotterdam bombing but had in fact been planed for a while. Rotterdam was a besieged city, the German Army needed the bridges and needed to keep moving in order to participate in the Battle of France, these were high stakes as loss against France and Britain was still possible. The Dutch officer in charge of negotiations had delayed and milked a surrender of the city for almost 3 days and a mix up with ulimatum extensions, time zones and the non-availabillity of the valuable and accurate Stukas sealed the cities fate.

Despite general accusations there doesn't appear to have been any terror bombardment of Warsaw, if there were such orders given they were also refused.

Attacks on German cities expanded in scope after a lone Heinkel accidently dropped its bomb load on London, killing no one. Again propaganda used it as an excuse. The Luftwaffe had been avoiding targets around cities as much as possible (ports around naval base cities excepted)

Coventry was the home of Britains machine tool industry and also the home of much of its aero-engine production. It was attacked using x-geraet, a beam riding system as accurate as the legendary Oboe. Large Factories and dwellings shared walls in this citiy. The city was fire bombed but the targets were the specific factories althout the areas around them were clearly subject to something equal to area bombardment, the dwellings and occupents were not the target.

X-Geraete had very precise beams, but the main beam had 14 side lobes that could be accidently used. I'm not sure if intentional but the perimeter of one of the Conventry raids did have incendiaries dropped in a v-formation. This may have been marking to perimeter of the bomb zone or it may have been accidental.

The "Baedeker raids" on Bristish tourist towns at a latter stage of the war was a reprisal to attacks on cities like Lubeck, a medieval city of world heritage status. The fire bombing of this city which had no major targets, had a profound impact on the Germans. Goebells thought it was a new type of cultural warfare designed to demoralise by attacking markers of cultural heritage.

The area bombardment policy was driven I believe by frustration at the inabillity of bomber command to attack accuratly and survivably during the day. I think Curchills adviser, Lord Cherwell (Frederick Lindemann, a German born Jew with an American mother) who has been described as having a pathalogical hatred of Germans set Bomber Command deeper down this path than it otherwise would.

There was little waiting for better aircraft or better navigation aids able to carry out different policies. The "over the horizon" version of Oboe, that worked with orbiting aircraft and was working in 43 was never pushed enough because it seems the policy was set in stone.

When the V2 (and V1) was prematurely rushed into production it was to provide a counter terror with which it might be possible to negotiate an end of bombardment of German cities. It was hideously inaccurate (4.5km CEP by German trials but still more accurate than H2S/H2X) The more accurate guidance systems of the V2 (vollzirkell) or full-circle, used a columated beam riding system with motor cuttoff controlled by doppler and range for an accuracy of 500m. It ran into trouble with ground plane interferance in testing in 1943 and had to be re-engineered for higher frequencies and compensating techniques. The new components were bing built at the end of the war.

The Luftwaffe was used to attack cities and that they fire bombed them is without doubt, but it does seem they were responding to immediate tactical needs such as supporting an Army crossing (Rotterdam) or destroying aero-engine infrastructure (Coventry). I can certainly see how this 'escalated' tit for tat. I don't see that there was a Nazi, Luftwaffe or a German policy of city bombardment that tirggered this.