Luftwaffe's ideal night fighter: you are in charge

[davebender]

6,627 kg. Me-410 empty weight. 2 x 1,750 hp engines.
6,600 kg. Ta-154 empty weight. 2 x 1,500 hp engines.

Ta 154 A1 equipped with full nightfighter equipment and Jumo 211N achieved 625 km/h

That would be fine if it were true but I doubt it is. The similiar size Me-410A had 500 more hp and didn't have radar aerials yet could achieve only 388mph.

 

[davebender]

Do you have a number for this "huge drag"? I have read it amounts to about 7 knots for a Ju-88 but German radar equipment was lighter in weight and electrical power requirements were lower.

 

[Erich]

Dave

are you talking performance figures on 410 and 154 with souped up engines as your lists do not correlate with actual operating conditions.

back to the 262 one must ask if the jet could not slow down sufficiently to undertake a BC 4 engine then why the tech use of SM installation behind the canopy. The B-2 was to have an extended fuselage for reasons I gave earlier and it would have been the ultimate NF machine for the LW. but back to 1942 ............ numbers indicate as much as 10-15 mph slower with aerials off the nose but because of all the homing devices/aerials off the wings this is added into the figure given.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

The British (Harris was there as officer and was very fond of idea, go figure) used to bomb Iraq arab rebels into submission with gas and air attacks on civillians in the 1920s. Firebombing civillians is clear connected to Bomber Command/Arthur Harris more than to anybody else. I doubt anybody else can be named who would make this a policy (meaning: not tactic used in some cases, often as retribution to other action). USAAF policy in Far east comes close only imho.

Still peddling lies, Tante Ju? The RAF never used gas to attack anyone, since the stocks remained in the U.K. Have you ever tried firebombing in the desert, by the way? There's not a lot to burn out there, and if a tribesman takes a potshot, at you, with a rifle, he ceases to be a civilian. More Russian "truths," perhaps?
Check the 1940 photos, and you'll find London ablaze, thanks to German incendiaries. At the start of the war, the RAF was banned from dropping bombs on Germany, because it was seen as private property, so please let's have none of this nonsense that the RAF started it, and the poor misunderstood Germans were only retaliating.
My heart sank, today, when I saw, yet again, in a debate on bombers v nightfighters, Dresden being dragged out, as though it was some defining moment; the German generals might have known, by 13-2-45, that the war was as good as over, but, having been on the receiving end of the Bulge and Bodenplatte, the Allies never knew any such thing. As always, hindsight is 20:20.
It's funny, in a way, how few people know what really led the way, for the Allies, in the night skies, and the secret was so well kept that the Germans (and even the pilots) never found out. Infra-red was put to use, as an air-to-air recognition tool, and, for more than 30 years, no-one ever knew.
Edgar

 

[stona]

Maybe 'huge' was not a good choice of word! Significant drag compared with a radar dish contained within a nose cone. I've stood under the Bf110G-4 at Hendon and the FuG 220 array is big! That aircraft doesn't carry the additional FuG 202.
Cheers
Steve

 

[DonL]

6,627 kg. Me-410 empty weight. 2 x 1,750 hp engines.
6,600 kg. Ta-154 empty weight. 2 x 1,500 hp engines.

hat would be fine if it were true but I doubt it is. The similiar size Me-410A had 500 more hp and didn't have radar aerials yet could achieve only 388mph.

It is true!!

The Ta 154 V1 achieved 700km/h with Jumo 211N at Rechlin without nightfighter equipment and ammo!
The top speed troped with full ammo and nightfighter equipment to 625 km/h

There were several tests with the V1, V3 and a A1 all with Jumo 211N engines!

Besides this, what has weight to do with top speed?
Weight has a minimal effect to top speed, aerodynamic is much more important. It's 90% aerodynamic and 10% weight.
Weight has effect on acceleration but not on top speed!

 

[tomo pauk]

Hopefully it would be okay to start a new thread that would cover the politics high-brass doctrine? Or perhaps people should just refrain posting about those in this thread?

Thankyou.

 

[davebender]

Let's do a comparison.

How much speed did a 1943 British Mosquito night fighter lose due to weight of the radar equipment and additional electrical power requirements?

 

[stona]

Check the 1940 photos, and you'll find London ablaze, thanks to German incendiaries.

Infra-red was put to use, as an air-to-air recognition tool, and, for more than 30 years, no-one ever knew.
Edgar

Google St Paul's and you'll find the ultimate blitz photograph. 29/12/40,a U.S. reporter cabled his office 'the second great fire of London has begun'.
The Luftwaffe was indeed 'sowing the wind'.

There was a clever system by which an infra-red beam from an RAF night fighter would be received by a friendly bomber and prevent it's guns (at least the rear turret) from firing. I don't know if this ever became operational,nor can I remember where I read about it.

Steve

 

[davebender]

It is true!!

The Ta 154 V1 achieved 700km/h with Jumo 211N at Rechlin without nightfighter equipment and ammo!
The top speed troped with full ammo and nightfighter equipment to 625 km/h

If true the Ta-154 was faster then a British Mosquito. It's also faster then Spitfire V day fighters which formed the backbone of RAF Fighter Command right into 1944.

Pardon my skepticism but this sounds too good to be true. Can you produce historical RLM documentation to verify these claims?

 

[Edgar Brooks]

There was a clever system by which an infra-red beam from an RAF night fighter would be received by a friendly bomber and prevent it's guns (at least the rear turret) from firing. I don't know if this ever became operational,nor can I remember where I read about it.

I haven't found any evidence of that, and I suspect it might be overegging the pudding a little. If you look at the bomb-aimer's cupola, on "S for Sugar," at Hendon, you'll see two black circles. These were set to signal the letter of the day, using infra-red, and the gunner had an infra-red sight attached to his guns; if a shape appeared behind him, flashing a particular letter, he didn't fire. Aircraft also had lights attached to their wings' trailing edges, and Mosquito nightfighters had a similar receiver in the cockpit; as one pilot put it,"If the wings were lit up, like a Christmas tree, by that sight, we left it alone."
One of my encyclopedias confirms the Ta 154 as having a maximum speed of 404mph (650kph.) It says that the whole thing was abandoned when an alternative adhesive (the original factory was bombed, and destroyed) reacted badly with the plywood, and two production aircraft had structural failure.
Edgar

 

[davebender]

Ta-154A0.
Fitted with FuG202 radar equipment and short radar antenna.
Powered by two 1,500hp Jumo211R engines.
385mph max speed.
This sounds believable. Speed similiar to Me-210C which was similiar in weight and engine power.

Nothing wrong with this performance. I would endorse the Ta-154 project provided two changes are made.
- Make the aircraft from aluminum which Germany has plenty of. We don't need problems associated with wood construction.
- Power the aircraft with DB605 engines as the Daimler-Benz engine has additional HP increases on the horizon. The Jumo211 was a dead end by 1942.

I suspect an aluminum Ta-154 powered by DB605 engines would look a lot like a night fighter variant of the Me-210C. So the two prototypes would likely compete against each other for the contract.

The considerably larger He-219 won't work as it requires more powerful DB603 or Jumo213 engines to achieve comparable performance. Those engines won't be available due to RLM decisions made during October 1935.

 

[DonL]

Dave,

but you youre comparing apple with beans!

The Tank 154 A0 flew 385 mph as full equiped nightfighter (4x MK108 and 2x151/20) and FuG202.

The Me 210C flew 385mph as day fighter! No Me 210C will reach 385mph with full night fighter equipment!
Perhaps 580 km/h!

Edit:
And again: Weight don't effect top speed!

Why on earth could a Ju88 G6 achieve 625km/h as full equipped nightfighter?

 

[Erich]

the log buchs of some I./NJG 3 pilots confirm the Ta 154 in use but the high rate of speed is not what you all have quoted not even close.......... again this tried and true NJG were not due to several factors impressed with the future bomber killer just like they were not for the He 219A.

Steve infra-red system was used in 1945 on Ju 88G-6's by the LW.

as to the speed of a Ju 88, yes with MW boost system

 

[davebender]

An Me-210C with a different fuselage designed specifically for the night fighter role would not be an Me-210C. It would be an entirely new aircraft model which shares wings and engines with the Me-210C. Subtract 7 knots for the radar antenna. But how much speed gets added back when we delete the bomb bay, dive brakes, strengthening required for dive bombing, rear firing 13mm MG barbettes etc?

 

[DonL]

Erich,

to my informations the Ta 154 was in service at III/NJG 3 not I.

 

[Ratsel]

Ju 88S was a high-speed bomber series based on Ju 88 A-4 but with ventral Bola gondola omitted, smoothly glazed nose and GM-1 nitrous-oxide boost, fastest of all variants. Now delete everything associated with bombing, and there yah go.. mosquito killer all day long.

 

[davebender]

delete everything associated with bombing, and there yah go.. mosquito killer all day long.

It's not quite that simple. You need radar equipment and weapons if you want to find and kill enemy aircraft at night. You also need to build at least 100 of these aircraft per month if you want to seriously hurt RAF Bomber Command.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Seigfried - thanks for the analysis of radar. Interesting stuff. I don't claim that Britain invented radar - nor is radar the principle component of Britain's air defense planning -- back to the Zeppelins of WW1. I was thinking of much more - national mind set - as exemplified by this (for example): Listening for the Enemy: Giant Ears on the British Coast - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Is it easier to defend an island than a "patch" of territory not surrounded by a large "moat"? Well yes, I guess it is. That's why moats were invented isn't it.

 

[Ratsel]

It's not quite that simple. You need radar equipment and weapons if you want to find and kill enemy aircraft at night. You also need to build at least 100 of these aircraft per month if you want to seriously hurt RAF Bomber Command.

The Ju-88 already had the radar. Also, I would think it would be used in combination with other A/C.. every seen the Bf 109 with Neptune Radar?