The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Not quite.
Luftwaffe's ideal night fighter: you are in charge
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
I don't understand your logic, the Spitfire prototype was very good compared to its contemporaries as was the Bf 109B. The Defiant was a modern incarnation of a WW1 concept that was outclassed by its contemporaries in its original role.
The Bf 110 was eventually unsucessful in its original role, though not as severly as the Defiant. It became a very decent nightfighter (by chance) that above all had the room for a three men crew, heavy forward armament and radio equipment all the while remaining faster than the bomber it needed to intercept and retaining a decent range. This changed over the course of the war as armament and equipment had to me made deadlier and heavier and enemy bombers faster. The defiant, being single engined and much smaller, probably bumped against limitations much earlier, though I'm not an expert.
Last edited:
Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
That's a bit of an over-simplification; it was the wild over-claiming of 12 Group's "Big Wing," plus the connivance of Sholto-Douglas with Leigh-Mallory, coupled with Dowding having worked way past his retirement, leaving him utterly exhausted.
No, the first NF Mosquitoes went into action 27-4-42, and Blenheim fighters were trialling A.I. equipment in late 1940. The Beaufighter entered service in 1940, with Bob Braham getting his first night kill (a Dornier,) in one, 13-3-41.
The night sky is a big, black empty space, and, without decent equipment, it's impossible to get close enough to any aircraft, and carry out an adquate recognition, then shoot it down, without the other pilot seeing you, and disappearing off in a corkscrew dive.
So would you, if you were on the receiving end of 30 bomb loads.
Edgar
I'm aware of that and of course his successor did no better,how could he with the technology available? The night sky is indeed very big and very black.
The inability of the RAF to afford any effective protection from the Luftwaffe at night was the single biggest piece of ammunition that the Douglas/Mallory/et alter clique had to help them remove Dowding. There were many at the Air Ministry who had,politely,a minimal grasp of the complexities of air fighting,particularly at night. They could be easily convinced that Dowding was falling down on the job.
Cheers
Steve
The Bf 110 was actually fulfilling its original specification. The Bf 110 had good handling, one thing important for night takeoff and landings.
The "Zerstorer" concept was for the following roles
1 heavy fighter bomber to straff up and bomb aerodromes before defensive fighters could be launched prior to level bombers destroying the aerodrome.
2 heavy fighter to shoot down enemy bombers over own territory using heavy fire power.
3 bad weather fighter (which covers night fighter)
When the Bf 110 was used as an escort fighter it was operating outside of its role, which is why it got creamed unless dealing with slower aircraft. Kurt Tank developed the FW 187 as a lighter twin engined fighter able to mix it with single engined aircraft in terms of maneuverability, climb and acceleration but possibly likely faster and longer ranged, sort of like the Whirlind. The Luftwaffe didn't get the concept: it was prone to economizing by specifying aircraft into multi-role combat aircraft.
Once radar was fitted and a 3rd crew member, (who couldn't escape if the rear gunner was stuck in his seat) the Me 110 started to become barely adequate, poor as you say.
A Wurzburg Giant could measure range to 25-40m accuracy and 0.15 degrees so could guide a radar less fighter to within about 50m. Accuracy was a little less in the elevation plane if the beam was close to the ground.
The He-219 night fighter was effective and well liked. Historically the program was hamstrung as this relatively large aircraft required relatively powerful DB603 engines that were in short supply. Consequently historical production numbers were tiny.
As for the Me-410A, most were used as bomber interceptors rather then their design role of light bomber. I doubt anyone would notice if they were replaced with Me-210Cs.
BTW, great information on the magnetron. Makes my head spin but I'm glad we have techno geeks who understand this stuff.
The He 219 with DB603A engine seems to have been regarded as somewhat underpowered though it was apparently the only Luftwaffe night fighter that could climb out after a single engine failure, presumably it had a higher wing loading than the Ju 88G6.
Your analysis basically says the Luftwaffe is stuffed without more high power engines. The Ju 88C and Ju 88R soldiered on with Jumo 211 engine although both were supposed to receive the BMW 801. The Ju 88G only appeared in 1943 yet the Ju 188E (BMW 801) and Ju 188A (Jumo 213A) both appeared in the first half of 1942, this introduced the bigger wings, ailerons and rudder to better handle the extra power that was used in the Ju 88S and Ju 88G.
The Jumo 211 didn't end up to bad, the versions with a pressurized coolant circuit, cropper supercharger and inter-cooler outperformed the DB605, at least at low altitude.
The only solution I see it engineer a highly streamlined aircraft.
I have been studying the German radar situation for years and have quite a library. Had the Germans decided to produce a microwave radar operating down to around 11cm and likely 9cm they could have done so by about the middle of 1943. The fact however is that both Telefunken and Lorentz (a great company never properly supported) put their work on the back burner when they were close to fielding 25cm devices. The technology could have been extended to around 10cm. It would be achieve to effectively downscale a 54cm wavelength Wurzburg with a 3m dish down to a 13.5cm. It would be in service around the time of SN-2, about 5 months after the Germans would have discovered the allied magnetron (a more powerfull device)
wavelength radar with a 75cm dish to produce a passable radar in a dome.
Here is some info on the DB603:
In german but you can used google translate:
Do335 Flugleistungen
chart of DB603 engines vs altitude:
Db-603 Engines Comment for Myspace, Twitter, Facebook
Here are figures for the earlier engines:
DB 603A. Length: 2610mm, Height: 1167mm, Width: 830mm. (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency (3'): 1750PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 570l/h
Climb and combat (30'): 1580PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 460l/h
At critical altitude of 5.7km
Emergency (3'): 1620PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 530l/h
Climb and combat (30'): 1510PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 460l/h
Emergency power at 10km: 950PS, 2700rpm, .85ata
DB 603AA. Length: 2610mm, Height: 1167mm, Width: 830mm (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency: 1670PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 550l/h
Climb and combat: 1580PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 460l/h
At critical altitude of 7.3km (emergency), and 7.2km (climb and
combat)
Emergency: 1450PS, 2700rpm, 1.4ata, 480l/h
Climb and combat: 1370PS, 2500rpm, 1.3ata, 440l/h
Emergency power at 10km: 1020PS, 2700rpm.
DB 603E. Length: 2706mm, Height: 1167mm, Width: 830mm (B4 fuel)
At sea level.
T/off and emergency: 1800PS, 2700rpm, 1.48ata, 580l/h
Climb and combat: 1575PS, 2500rpm, 1.35ata, 490l/h
At critical altitude of 7.0km (emergency), and 7.1km (climb and
combat)
Emergency: 1550PS, 2700rpm, 1.48ata, 510l/h
Climb and combat: 1430PS, 2500rpm, 1.35ata, 460l/h
Emergency power at 10km: 1060PS, 2700rpm.
I don't believe the DB603 ever operated with MW-50 or C3.
At one point the Ta 152C was supposed to operate with the DB603EM with C3 and MW50 with a power of 2260hp, fuel worried forced a change to the DB603LA with two speed supercharger but operating of B4. The DB603L was C3 optimized I think.
The DB603G was apparently never produced.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
With the possible exception of the Ju-88, I suspect Me-110s have shot down more enemy aircraft at night then any other aircraft type. Just think what it could have accomplished if it was a "good nightfighter".
Mr Siegfried
I had located the links that you provided 2-3 years ago. It provides performance figures for the Db 603 that i have never met anywhere else, in any book. For example Hermann s Ta 152 gives Db 603LA as 2100 with Mw50 . Yet only with such figures the heavy Ta 152C airframes would have adequate performance. So it makes sence. I think Ta 152C V6 flew with Db603 EB reaching 617 km/h. So theres some confusion about the Db603.
I agree about Mw50, I have never read about Db 603 using Mw 50 in service and that gives Jumo 213 an edge for late 44. And its bizarre because 605 used it from early spring 44. Without ADI all german engines in 44 are simplyy not competitive in west.
It s trully beyond logic the desicions of Luftwaffe. Could have Fw 190 +Db 603 + C3 in service from early 43, could have Ju 88s airframe from 1939 + BMW 801 since 42, could have an unstopable for the eastern front standards attack aircraft (ME410) from early 43, a powrfull night ju 88 from 43 , not to mention Fw 187 still available in 42. It seems that early in war could not even understand the benefits of streamlining! Could anyone explain why Ju 88 A nose had such a druggy shape? Or the psihosis with the gondolas! Or all the development work for the Ju 188 that resulted in mediocre improvement in performance over standart JU88 bombers ( which were kept in paralel production!)
Erich
the old Sage
interesting thought process Jim and not surprising, why the Ju 88 had such a non streamlined nose and so blunt, though that was to be rectified with the AI within a wooden nose cone short and long, and very smooth the same would of applied to the Me 262 with advance d form of AI a long snoot the 262 would change to be a long profiled fighter jet had it been available in 45-46. the Ta 152 under documentation which I have copies of would indeed been used as a possible S/E Nachtjäger. the altitude and performance of speed indicated so, whether it would of been searchlight or radio-ground control single radar equipped is of question........one can wonder with newer stealth products being developed had the Ta 152 seen service in radar-less paint coating's ?
and yes Dave the Bf 110G-4 scored more night kills than any LW fighter primarily with the famous NJG 1. but as pilots switched from the outdated unit to the upgraded Ju 88G-6, NJG 1 stuck with the Bf 110G except for He 219 I. gruppe. a mix of 110's and Ju's in NJG 6 at wars end and a few left overs in NJG 4.
and yes Dave the Bf 110G-4 scored more night kills than any LW fighter primarily with the famous NJG 1. but as pilots switched from the outdated unit to the upgraded Ju 88G-6, NJG 1 stuck with the Bf 110G except for He 219 I. gruppe. a mix of 110's and Ju's in NJG 6 at wars end and a few left overs in NJG 4.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
The Bf 110 ticked the boxes for a nightfighter but it became marginal at the higher weights and had no single engine performance.
It was available when it was needed and filled a gap. To my knowledge night combat was never a design configuration for the 110 and only the Black Widow was designed as a njghtfighter.
Dowding was removed because he didn't play the game. Being good is no substitute to being popular.
It was available when it was needed and filled a gap. To my knowledge night combat was never a design configuration for the 110 and only the Black Widow was designed as a njghtfighter.
Dowding was removed because he didn't play the game. Being good is no substitute to being popular.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Isn't that what counts most?
For example the P-51H was technically excellent but entered service too late for WWII and was obsolete by the Korean War.
The German Type XXI submarine was technically excellent and produced in large numbers but it entered service too late to matter.
The British Comet Tank was a fine 33 ton medium tank but entered service too late to participate in any major WWII battles. By the Korean War it had already been eclipsed by the larger Centurian Tank.
The German Me-262 jet fighter didn't enter service in Jagdgeschwader strength until mid March 1945. Too late to matter.
What if the above weapons had been in service a couple years earlier when they were badly needed?
For example the P-51H was technically excellent but entered service too late for WWII and was obsolete by the Korean War.
The German Type XXI submarine was technically excellent and produced in large numbers but it entered service too late to matter.
The British Comet Tank was a fine 33 ton medium tank but entered service too late to participate in any major WWII battles. By the Korean War it had already been eclipsed by the larger Centurian Tank.
The German Me-262 jet fighter didn't enter service in Jagdgeschwader strength until mid March 1945. Too late to matter.
What if the above weapons had been in service a couple years earlier when they were badly needed?
DB-603G was definitely produced in limited numbers for testing, most of the Ta152 series 1943 and 44 testing used them. The EC was added later in the year and the LA was finally ready in early 45, the 617km/h V6 did that at tree top height over the airfield with an EC motor (C3/MW50 1.95ata). The Ta152C was never going to be fitted with the E in service, just the L but the requirement was for B4 so they modded it to the LA. It's the same difference between the 213E and F, you'd use the L in a lighter Dora airframe as a hotrod.
Lots of things changed between Nov44-Feb45 about the Ta152C production series trim proposal (C-1 and C-3 variants were ratified and tooling delivered Apr45, there is no question about their mass production had the war continued, where most other proposals were pipe dreams). One thing which remained though was it was since late 1943 always going to use either the Jumo 213E or the 603L. The Dora-14/15 was a late call revision of the D-11/12/13 since the RLM now wanted to use the Daimler motor for them, hence the redesignation. They hadn't decided which 603 they were going to use in those.
Lots of things changed between Nov44-Feb45 about the Ta152C production series trim proposal (C-1 and C-3 variants were ratified and tooling delivered Apr45, there is no question about their mass production had the war continued, where most other proposals were pipe dreams). One thing which remained though was it was since late 1943 always going to use either the Jumo 213E or the 603L. The Dora-14/15 was a late call revision of the D-11/12/13 since the RLM now wanted to use the Daimler motor for them, hence the redesignation. They hadn't decided which 603 they were going to use in those.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Give Germany another year and the massive Ostmark engine plant becomes a factor. When fully complete it was designed to produce 1,000 aircraft engines per month. Originally tooled for the Jumo222 V-24, the plant was re-tooled for the DB603 V-12 during 1943.
With production numbers that large I expect Dr. Tank would finally get the DB603 engines he has wanted for the Fw-190 program since 1937. Not that it makes much difference as the Me-262 would be operational in Jagdgeschwader strength by April 1945.
With production numbers that large I expect Dr. Tank would finally get the DB603 engines he has wanted for the Fw-190 program since 1937. Not that it makes much difference as the Me-262 would be operational in Jagdgeschwader strength by April 1945.
Where would Germany be getting it's fuel a year later? Did they have any possibility of holding on to the Romanian oil , or could they ramp up synthectic production enough?
If they had been able to hold out another 6 months, that would have probably just made them the receivers of our first atomic bombs.
If they had been able to hold out another 6 months, that would have probably just made them the receivers of our first atomic bombs.
Exactly and what about the F8F-1
davebender
1st Lieutenant
If Germany is holding out into 1946 I've got to assume the Allies have done worse then historical. The synthetic fuel plants are probably still operational and the Soviet offensive has probably stalled out east of Poland and Romania. This has allowed Germany to shift enough forces west to establish a solid defense in eastern France. Perhaps along the Meuse River, taking advantage of all the WWI era fortifications.
Of course this is all speculation.
Of course this is all speculation.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... If they had been able to hold out another 6 months, that would have probably just made them the receivers of our first atomic bombs"
I am sceptical. Do you have any source for use of Atomic weapons in Europe in 1945?
MM
I am sceptical. Do you have any source for use of Atomic weapons in Europe in 1945?
MM
He could play the game alright,you don't rise to his rank if you can't. He made enemies in high places Freeman,Salmond,Sinclair,Douglas,even Trenchard (whom he had rubbed up the wrong way years previously). Often it was his own fault. Even the Vice-Chief of the Naval Staff,Admiral Tom Phillips,had a stab at Dowding over the RAF's inability to counter night attacks!
When the head of Middle East Air Command (Longmore) was sacked in May 1941 Churchill proposed Dowding for the job. The Air Ministry quite rightly rejected him and promoted Longmore's deputy Tedder who turned out to be an outstanding commander. Dowding,for the reasons alluded to in Edgar's earlier post,was done by now.Churchill took the Ministries advice,though he always remained personally loyal to Dowding.
I have always been one of Dowding's biggest fans,but I am also a realist.
Cheers
Steve
davebender
1st Lieutenant
How could there be? The war in Europe ended before President Truman knew the atomic bomb existed.
From the American perspective atomic bombs were just one more weapons system to be used. If central Europe remains free of Soviet occupation during August 1945 then using atomic bombs against Germany becomes possible. It is not by any means certain. Perhaps we will be deterred by German threats of reprisal with their weapon of mass destruction - nerve gas delivered by V2 rockets or jet bombers. If deterrence doesn't work then Europe, including Britain, will become a very nasty place to live during the fall of 1945.
From the American perspective atomic bombs were just one more weapons system to be used. If central Europe remains free of Soviet occupation during August 1945 then using atomic bombs against Germany becomes possible. It is not by any means certain. Perhaps we will be deterred by German threats of reprisal with their weapon of mass destruction - nerve gas delivered by V2 rockets or jet bombers. If deterrence doesn't work then Europe, including Britain, will become a very nasty place to live during the fall of 1945.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
".... If deterrence doesn't work then Europe, including Britain, will become a very nasty place to live during the fall of 1945."
Which is why I am skeptical about the use of the bomb in any circumstances in 1945.
"deterrence" is not really an active war policy in WW2. The closest example is nerve gas and both sides had experience with that already and didn't want to repeat historical mis-steps. "deterrence" becomes a real option when both the Soviets and America have enough bombs to kill each other several times over - and is best described as MAD.
The bomb was a surprise to Japan in August 1945. It would have been a surprise to the Germans in January - August 1945.
The Allies were demanding unconditional surrender from both Germany and Japan. The Germans were defeated after the Ardennes Offensive, December 1944. Troops were across the Rhine shortly afterwards. In the Pacific, Japan was anything but defeated and as Okinawa proved, the people were prepared to die en masse rather than yield to defeat.
MM
Which is why I am skeptical about the use of the bomb in any circumstances in 1945.
"deterrence" is not really an active war policy in WW2. The closest example is nerve gas and both sides had experience with that already and didn't want to repeat historical mis-steps. "deterrence" becomes a real option when both the Soviets and America have enough bombs to kill each other several times over - and is best described as MAD.
The bomb was a surprise to Japan in August 1945. It would have been a surprise to the Germans in January - August 1945.
The Allies were demanding unconditional surrender from both Germany and Japan. The Germans were defeated after the Ardennes Offensive, December 1944. Troops were across the Rhine shortly afterwards. In the Pacific, Japan was anything but defeated and as Okinawa proved, the people were prepared to die en masse rather than yield to defeat.
MM
Last edited:
Users who are viewing this thread
Similar threads
