Luftwaffe's ideal night fighter: you are in charge

[pbfoot]

flying a Single engine fighter , obeying the fighter controllers instructions and vectots getting you into position to intercept the stream and then fiddling aroind with gains on your radar and trying to get a target on your radar all the while controlling your aircraft in the turbulence of the stream and worrying about fuel ....its a dead end proposiion. Is there any wonder wht all the early jet interceptors were 2 seaters

 

[davebender]

The twin engine P-38 would perform just as poorly at night as a Me-109 or Spitfire. The problem is a single aircrew. Not a single engine.

 

[The Basket]

The Me 210 was a dog and had a bad reputation so that was a non starter. A French plane made by French workers is just asking for sabotage.

The Bf 110 is there...it is working and can be easily modifed and a low risk programme. It aint no rocketship but it aint the worst thing either.

 

[davebender]

You keep repeating this but have yet to present evidence there was anything wrong with the Me-210C. If you have reasons for your opinion then please state them.

 

[The Basket]

I keep repeating? I have said it once!

The thread is about choosing a night fighter from Autumn 1940 so to be prepared for the onslaught of bomber command in 1942. What part of the Me 210 even remotely fills that space? If it starts production in 42 then what is actually flying as a night fighter in 1942? What are the crews training in?

The faults of the Me 210 in the period of 1940-41 are well documented. One could argue the the Me 210c and the Me 410 would have been good night fighters but for what timeframe? certainly not 1942.

 

[davebender]

So are faults of P-47s during 1940 to 1941. What does that have to do with production versions from September 1942 onward?

 

[Maximowitz]

If memory serves I./NJG 1 took on a few 410's for night trials but they were deemed unsuitable. II./KG 51 used them for night intruder missions in spring '44 over the UK with some interesting results - but for a night fighter in 1942, excluding jets, you'd be looking at a Ju88 variant - ever popular with the pilots of the Nachtjager.

 

[Siegfried]

If memory serves I./NJG 1 took on a few 410's for night trials but they were deemed unsuitable. II./KG 51 used them for night intruder missions in spring '44 over the UK with some interesting results - but for a night fighter in 1942, excluding jets, you'd be looking at a Ju88 variant - ever popular with the pilots of the Nachtjager.

Some Me 410 were apparently fitted with Lorentz Hohtenweil radars for anti-shipping missions. The Me 410 had a bomb bay and I am surprised it couldn't be used to fit the radar gear for a Lichtenstein, SN-2 or Neptune radar. Sometimes it just gets down to the shape of the electronics packaging or interference from gun vibration?


Pic here

Lorentz wasn't treated to well, the German navy which originated radar in Germany ignored it initially because of its foreign ownership even though the workforce was almost entirely German. The Luftwaffe (General Martini) had no concerns over the ownership issue but for whatever reason, presumably one of avoiding duplication, didn't support its Kurmark FLAK 53cm wavelength radars with more than a dozen purchases giving all the work to Telefunkens Wurzburg.

The Lorentz work was adapted into niches like radar for Maritime reconnaissance aircraft and also provided usable PPI radar with only a 1.8m square antenna for u-boats as well as a 2.4m antenna for destroyers and for surface search on battleships and cruisers that had been brought to the R+D point it could also provide blind fire via subsidiary lobe switching. They made small mobile PPI radars mounted in trailers for filling in the gaps between bigger radars called Jagdhutte (hunting hut)

It's anode modulated radars had a 50kW pulse, some seven times greater than the 8kW seen on Seetakt and Wurzburg and comparable to the UK's Type 284P which opperated at 125kW.

By 1942 Lorentz were 80% complete on a 27cm wavelength semi microwave radar for FLAK laying that would have greatly improved Germany's position during the coming onslaught of Windows and Carpet Jamming however the firm couldn't see any orders comming and abandoned the field.

 

[The Basket]

Again I will state that the Me 210 is not going to be available in number and fully operational in 1942.

The P47 has the luxury of time.The Luftwaffe do not.

 

[stona]

Fw-190 night fighters should be employed as point defense for heavily bombed areas such as the Ruhr, Hamburg and Berlin. Perhaps assign a dedicated Fw-190 night fighter staffel to each such high priority area. Unlike longer legged Me-110s and Ju-88s they would remain within about 75 km of their home airfield.

Which is a solution proposed by many at the Air Ministry and rejected by Dowding in 1940/41.Dowding knew his eggs when organising an air defence system.

I've just had an unscientific Trawl through Luftwaffe night fighter claims and I am struggling to decipher the relative success rates of S/E and T/E types. It obviously relates to how many were deployed. Anybody have some easily digestible statistics? Much as I'd love to work through my figures I have to go and earn a living!
Cheers
Steve

 

[Shortround6]

So are faults of P-47s during 1940 to 1941. What does that have to do with production versions from September 1942 onward?

What faults of the P-47 in 1940 to 1941?? First prototype doesn't fly until May of 1941 and the first production plane doesn't roll out until 2 weeks after Pearl Harbor. A little tough documenting faults for a plane that doesn't really exist. Spring of 1942 might be a different story.

 

[davebender]

Are you referring to daytime air defenses or night air defenses?

Britain had no effective night air defenses during 1940 to 1941. German night bomber losses averaged less then 1% per mission during that time period.

 

[Siegfried]

Again I will state that the Me 210 is not going to be available in number and fully operational in 1942.

The P47 has the luxury of time.The Luftwaffe do not.

The Me 210 was slated for truly massive production starting in early 1941. In reality it only entered service as a debugged aircraft as the Me 210C in late 1942, effectively Jan 43 for the Me 410.

The disruption was not so much that the Me 210 was late but that whole aircraft plants had been shut down and retooled to produce the Me 210 then had to retool to produce substitutes like the Ju 88. Eg Heinkels facility near Rostok stopped producing He 111 and to produce Me 210 but then had to make Ju 88 instead.

It's said, anecdotally by Rudiger Kosin (Ar 234 designer) that Willy Messerschmitt personally intervened in the design process to remove the slats and shorten the tail. When the test pilot stepped out of the aircraft he was ashen faced from stressed and immediately stated it needed slats and another meter of tail. However Messerschmitt and the Reich Luft Minsterium were fast tracking the project and had already made RM 5 million of jigs and they would all need to be thrown away. Much time was wasted though slats and extended tail were tested it took a while for them to be tested together unconsciously finding a work around. Broth parties were guilty and weren't calling each other on the problems.

The Me 410 was really only a Me 210 with the bigger DB603 engines and deeper fuselage to handle more radio and other equipment. In theory Me 210 could have been ready by middle 1941 in practice it was late 1942.
********
Messerschmitt learned from the mistakes and started to do more professional risk management with for instance test beds aircraft running ahead of the main project to evaluate risky aspects of the design and incorporation of "plan B" design modifications (eg provision for larger slats) to cope for contingencies.

********

As far as the ideal Luftwaffe night fighter it is the original Ju 88 schellbomber or fast bomber before that aircraft role was ruined by the dive bombing requirements which greatly increased the weight of the structure.

Below are the Ju 88 V1, V4 and V5 respectively. The V5 set a 1000km record at 517kmh/320mph and 2000km record at 501kmh/311mph both with a 2000kg load.

Its likely if they had of persisted with the fast bomber concept, perhaps in parrallel with the dive bomber concept they not only would have had an aircraft too fast to be intercepted by the Hurricane but also an ideal nightfighter. It was also an aircraft that started out as a DB600 aircraft and moved to the Jumo.

 

[davebender]

The Me 210 was slated for truly massive production starting in early 1941. In reality it only entered service as a debugged aircraft as the Me 210C in late 1942, effectively Jan 43 for the Me 410.

The disruption was not so much that the Me 210 was late but that whole aircraft plants had been shut down and retooled to produce the Me 210 then had to retool to produce substitutes like the Ju 88. Eg Heinkels facility near Rostok stopped producing He 111 and to produce Me 210 but then had to make Ju 88 instead.

It's said, anecdotally by Rudiger Kosin (Ar 234 designer) that Willy Messerschmitt personally intervened in the design process to remove the slats and shorten the tail. When the test pilot stepped out of the aircraft he was ashen faced from stressed and immediately stated it needed slats and another meter of tail. However Messerschmitt and the Reich Luft Minsterium were fast tracking the project and had already made RM 5 million of jigs and they would all need to be thrown away. Much time was wasted though slats and extended tail were tested it took a while for them to be tested together unconsciously finding a work around. Broth parties were guilty and weren't calling each other on the problems.

That's pretty much my understanding also. Bad program management was the only thing which prevented the Me-210C from entering mass production during the fall of 1942. RLM derailed the Me-210 program during April 1942 by over reacting to problems with the 100 or so early production Me-210As.

Point of departure.
April 1942. RLM does not over react.
The Me-210 fuselage fix was implemented on a prototype 14 March 1942. So it's already known. Me-210 production is halted for a month or two while rear fuselage jigs are modified. Then production restarts.

July 1942.
Leading edge slots successfully tested on an Me-210 prototype.

This improvement will also be incorporated to the Me-210 production line. Existing Me-210s will receive the wing modification when aircraft return to depot for major repairs.

Now it's full speed ahead for the Me-210C program. There is no Me-110G as that aircraft type has been superceded.

Without the Me-110G Germany has no choice but to design a Me-210C night fighter variant. Over the long run that's a good thing.

 

[stona]

Are you referring to daytime air defenses or night air defenses?

Britain had no effective night air defenses during 1940 to 1941. German night bomber losses averaged less then 1% per mission during that time period.

Night defences. The RAF's inability to intercept the Luftwaffe by night led to everybody (even senior naval officers) suggesting just how Dowding should go about his job. The idea you have mooted was presented several times but good old Hugh was having none of it.

The Me210 debacle was used as an excuse by the RLM to displace Messerschmitt and take over control of the firm. It is also often forgotten that the twice over switch of production at Regensburg had an effect on production of other types. Peter Schmoll estimates that a minimum of 200 Bf109Gs were lost. There were about 100 Me210s at Obertraubling,rejected by the Luftwaffe which were initially going to be broken up. A few were actually scrapped before a fix was proposed. This fix (fuselage extension,slats etc),carried out on all the Me210 airframes already in production or produced took 3,400 man hours per aircraft,not an easy undertaking.
Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

fix (fuselage extension,slats etc),carried out on all the Me210 airframes already in production or produced took 3,400 man hours per aircraft,not an easy undertaking.

Then use the 300 Me-210As for parts.

The important thing is to get on with mass production of the Me-210C at the rate of about 300 aircraft per month, at least half of which would go to the night fighter force.

 

[stona]

Then use the 300 Me-210As for parts.

Initially,when Milch effectively took over,they were going to break up the Me210s already produced. Remember the RLM had cancelled the project. When Messerschmitt proposed the fix,and agreed to bear the cost, (incidentally promising a completely unrealistic schedule,Messerschmitt must have known it was not possible) the existing airframes were adapted to the new standard. They weren't used for parts,they were used as the basis for the revised standard. That's what took 3,400 man hours per aircraft.

I agree that if they could have sorted out the chaos sooner the Me 210/410 would have been a good platform to develop as a nightfighter.

Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

Engineers had the most important Me-210 program fix ready during March 1942. The only chaos was at RLM during April 1942.

The Me-210 program was too important for the German war effort to allow it to be derailed by RLM politics. If necessary Goering should have stepped in and and put the program back on track for mass production during the fall of 1942. He should also have replaced Milch for fumbling management of such an important program.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... The Me-210 program was too important for the German war effort to allow it to be derailed by RLM politics. If necessary Goering should have stepped in and and put the program back on track for mass production during the fall of 1942. "

How is it that the Hungarians were able to use the 210 effectively - all-be-it as a heavy fighter bomber-killer, not a Night Fighter?

MM

 

[davebender]

Germany used them effectively also. 89 Me-210Cs were produced in Germany during 1943 and another 74 during 1944. Plus about another 150 Me-210Cs that Hungary delivered to Germany.