Luftwaffe's ideal night fighter: you are in charge

[Erich]

Gentlemen

shall we get back on topic..........please

 

[davebender]

Requires an earlier start date (say 1939) but I agree the He-118 had potential as an inexpensive German night fighter. The bomb bay would become an equipment bay for radar gear. Nicely streamlined and relatively light in weight. Could probably achieve 350 mph with a DB601 or Jumo211 engine producing at least 1,350 hp. Fuel capacity might be the achilles heel. I have no idea how much it carried internally.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

For the RAF in 1940-41 they were smack in the middle of a panic and were still ramping up and refining Hurri and Spit production, most of these didn't have self sealing tanks and only just got bullet proof windshields, a good number were still using watts props including all the overseas hurricane squadrons, whilst reserve units were things like Gloster Gladiators.

Only the Hurricane's fuselage tanks weren't self-sealing, which is why they burnt so many of their pilots; Spitfire tanks were always self-sealing.
Hurricanes got bullet-proof windshields while still in France; Spitfires got them during the Dunkirk evacuation.
Hurricanes could not have armour plate fitted behind the pilot, unless the two-blade prop was ditched, and the armour was fitted while they were in France. No Spitfires, with two-blade props (none of which were Watts type, Supermarine made their own) were in service in 1940, and de Havilland converted all airframes to take their constant-speed 3-blade prop just before the Battle of Britain started.
There were no reserve units, all Squadrons had a part to play, with exhausted Squadrons sent north, to rest and rebuild, before coming south again to swap with others. There was only one Gladiator Squadron, during the Battle, 247, which was based at St. Eval, in Cornwall, out of the reach of the 109s.

 

[davebender]

Should be a favorite of British forum members at it looks so much like their Mosquito. 8)

Hs-127 Prototype.
Henschel Hs 127 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
5,000 kg empty weight. Relatively light. Of course this will increase some with weapons and other such equipment.
353 mph max speed. Achieved with 2 x 850 hp DB600 engines. Very fast for so little engine power.

In May 1938, the contract for Hs 127 development was cancelled by the RLM and the third prototype was not finished.

Point of departure.
May 1938.
RLM offers Henschel a contract to complete the third Hs-127 prototype as a purpose built night fighter. This is in response to the growth of RAF Bomber Command.

Any possibilities for the Hs-127 as a purpose built night fighter?

 

[pbfoot]

Only the Hurricane's fuselage tanks weren't self-sealing, which is why they burnt so many of their pilots; Spitfire tanks were always self-sealing.
.

I believe the tank in the fuselage aft of the engine was not self sealing in the Spit.

 

[The Basket]

In reality the Bf 110 is the only game in town. So kinda sorts that one.

Have to use an existing machine in full production and make the best of it. Otherwise it takes too long and the battle is finished even before you started. Load it up and hope it still has a little left in reserve. The 110 was on its last legs anyway so it fitted the bill nicely.

Even with the best detective work and knowledge...still would end up with an overloaded 110 as you play the cards your dealt.

 

[stona]

I believe the tank in the fuselage aft of the engine was not self sealing in the Spit.

Two tanks actually. Lower one with an exterior self-sealing coating,upper one protected by light aluminium armour and coated internally with fire retardant 'Linatex' which was a sort of rubberised self sealant. Linatex is still used today as target backing curtains on many shooting ranges.
I think the cockpit bulkhead was fire proofed too. Edgar will know more.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Edgar Brooks]

I think the cockpit bulkhead was fire proofed too. Edgar will know more.

You flatter me, slightly; the fireproof bulkhead was not introduced until August, 1941 (which comes from the Vickers Spitfire modifications ledger.)
Edgar

 

[pbfoot]

Two tanks actually. Lower one with an exterior self-sealing coating,upper one protected by light aluminium armour and coated internally with fire retardant 'Linatex' which was a sort of rubberised self sealant. Linatex is still used today as target backing curtains on many shooting ranges.
I think the cockpit bulkhead was fire proofed too. Edgar will know more.
Cheers
Steve

Yep I'm aware of the 2 tanks but in a quest to answer a question posed to me about the Spit I was involved with , the upper was never self sealed the main reason being IIRC it would have required altering or expanding fuselage hence the firewall was designed to prevent fuel from entering cockpit if tank was punctured

 

[stona]

I'm no expert,I'm just repeating what I've read. Maybe the fit issue was why it was an internal application of the Linatex on the upper tank.
Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

The Me-210C will be production ready by August 1942. And the production line was all tooled up.

Germany made a two seat pilot trainer version of the Fw-190A in limited numbers. The student cockpit position could be converted into a radar operator position. You cannot carry as much electronic equipment as a larger aircraft but the Fw-190 costs only about half as much as the Me-110.

The proposed Me-109Z could be produced as a night fighter. Personally I have my doubts as the Me-109 cockpit was so small. You could probably carry as much radar equipment in the two seat Fw-190.

What about the Fw-189 airframe? It has plenty of space for radar equipment. Max speed was 217 mph when powered by two 465 hp engines. Can it be modified to use more powerful engines such a the 700hp Gnome-Rhône 14M or 950hp BMW132?

What about the Potez 630 which remained in Vichy French production under German control? Replace the 700 hp engines with something more powerful and you might have a 350mph aircraft. As icing on the cake you take advantage of production in France.

 

[stona]

Germany made a two seat pilot trainer version of the Fw-190A in limited numbers. The student cockpit position could be converted into a radar operator position. You cannot carry as much electronic equipment as a larger aircraft but the Fw-190 costs only about half as much as the Me-110.

The student actually sat in the front and the instructor in the extra,aft,cockpit at a second set of controls in the Fw190S. There's not much room in the back!

They did try the Fw190A-6 with the FuG 217 as a single seat nightfighter. The radar scope went in place of the ammunition counters on the instrument panel but nothing came of it.
I think the Me210 was probably most promising but of course in reality there was a huge,38,000,000 Reich Mark, **** up with the early production versions.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Erich]

you do not need radar for a LW S/E that was already proven NJG 11 used nothing in late 44-45 on the Bf 109G-14/AS and G-10 of their unit.

Earlier applications look to JG 300 and 301 use of the 109G-6. there was enough down to the ground light from fires to illuminate BC nightly.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Yep I'm aware of the 2 tanks but in a quest to answer a question posed to me about the Spit I was involved with , the upper was never self sealed the main reason being IIRC it would have required altering or expanding fuselage hence the firewall was designed to prevent fuel from entering cockpit if tank was punctured

I don't know the significance (I'm no engineer,) but modification 450 was "To delete (A)stack pipe from top fuel tank (B) feed pipe from top tank to bottom tank (C) top **** assembly," and 511 was "To make provision for G type negative carburettor." When rear tanks, plus droptanks, were envisaged on the Mk.IX (and that looks like a Merlin 60-series header tank on the left edge of the photo,) it was sometimes practice to pressurise the whole system, to stop airlocks during changeover(s,) and I see that there's mention of a de-aerator, which was used on some of the Merlin 66 (maybe the 70) engines, with Bendix Stromberg carburettors.
Edgar
Apparently the site's inbuilt censor has decided that the "top **** assembly," being a four-letter word c--k, is too strong for your delicate eyes.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Me-210C will be production ready by August 1942. And the production line was all tooled up.

Germany made a two seat pilot trainer version of the Fw-190A in limited numbers. The student cockpit position could be converted into a radar operator position. You cannot carry as much electronic equipment as a larger aircraft but the Fw-190 costs only about half as much as the Me-110.

The proposed Me-109Z could be produced as a night fighter. Personally I have my doubts as the Me-109 cockpit was so small. You could probably carry as much radar equipment in the two seat Fw-190.

What about the Fw-189 airframe? It has plenty of space for radar equipment. Max speed was 217 mph when powered by two 465 hp engines. Can it be modified to use more powerful engines such a the 700hp Gnome-Rhône 14M or 950hp BMW132?

What about the Potez 630 which remained in Vichy French production under German control? Replace the 700 hp engines with something more powerful and you might have a 350mph aircraft. As icing on the cake you take advantage of production in France.

The Potez 630 with (I presume) DB-60x seems like a fast plane. A fresh proposal, I admit.

 

[davebender]

IMO this is the right idea but it's installed on the wrong aerial platform. A Fw-190 requires a full time pilot, especially when flying at night. WWII era AI radar and night navigation equipment requires a full time operator.

Install this system on a two seat Fw-190A and it will be a lot more effective. It's also probably the least expensive German night fighter option. Why not establish a Gruppe of two seat Fw-190A night fighters and see if the concept works? If it doesn't work the experiment has cost Germany very little. But if it does work the Fw-190A night fighter aircraft can be placed into mass production with little effort.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

The Air Ministry tried a radar set-up/nightfighter in a Typhoon, but it didn't work with the one man having far too much to do, so they stayed with the two-handed Beaufighter and Mosquito.

 

[davebender]

Amiot 354 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With the fall of Paris in June 1940, Amiot and 3000 of his workers headed south, to the unoccupied zone, where he established a new factory at Marseilles. During the war, Amiot co-operated with the German occupiers to protect his interests, and those of the exiled Wertheimers, then working in the United States. Amiot became a subcontractor for the Junkers company, building 370 aircraft.

The Amiot 354 factory was located in Paris. How much damage was done to production tooling by the retreating French Army? Probably no worse then bomb damage done to German aircraft factories. And Germany was getting pretty good at repairing such damage by 1942.

The 3,000 Amiot workers in Marseilles are probably getting homesick for Paris. Offer them a 50% pay raise if they will help get the bomber plant back into production. That's a higher priorty then building components for Ju-52 transport aircraft.

Replace the 1,060 hp Gnome-Rhone engines with 1,475 hp DB605 engines. I suspect that would give the Amiot 354 acceptable aerial performance.

 

[Erich]

JG 301 flew Fw 190A-4's with underwing fuel tanks, it still was not enough to get them all over Reich airspace when engaging BC and that was the real issue for a S/E they were of course needed for day ops the T/E could hold their own but never enough equipment.

 

[davebender]

JG 301 flew Fw 190A-4's with underwing fuel tanks, it still was not enough to get them all over Reich airspace when engaging BC and that was the real issue for a S/E they were of course needed for day ops the T/E could hold their own but never enough equipment.

That situation must be avoided as military aircraft require considerable maintenance. Night fighter units operating two seat Fw-190s must have their own equipment.

As for low endurance, that's the trade off for operating such an inexpensive aircraft. Fw-190 night fighters should be employed as point defense for heavily bombed areas such as the Ruhr, Hamburg and Berlin. Perhaps assign a dedicated Fw-190 night fighter staffel to each such high priority area. Unlike longer legged Me-110s and Ju-88s they would remain within about 75 km of their home airfield.