Lusitania

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think the cause was much earlier. The Americans were apalled by the German behaviour in Belgium in 1914. And it's true that the Germans behaved unnecessary cruel there. It was that early that the Americans bound themselves to the allies already, although I doubt they fully realised it at the time.

Nope, not correct.At least in the context of the Administration to make a case for a declaration of war with Germany. The Belgian attrocities certainly moved public opinion, as did the Lusitania episode, but America remained resolutely neutral through to the end of 1916. There were many discussion in Congress and in various other places but they remained largely unmoved

Speech to Congress, 2 April 1917 (in two parts)
Part I

"I have called the Congress into extraordinary session because there are serious, very serious, choices of policy to be made, and made immediately, which it was neither right nor constitutionally permissible that I should assume the responsibility of making.

On the third of February last I officially laid before you the extraordinary announcement of the Imperial German Government that on and after the first day of February it was its purpose to put aside all restraints of law or of humanity and use its submarines to sink every vessel that sought to approach either the ports of Great Britain and Ireland or the western coasts of Europe or any of the ports controlled by the enemies of Germany within the Mediterranean.

That had seemed to be the object of the German submarine warfare earlier in the war, but since April of last year the Imperial Government had somewhat restrained the commanders of its undersea craft in conformity with its promise then given to us that passenger boats should not be sunk and that due warning would be given to all other vessels which its submarines might seek to destroy, when no resistance was offered or escape attempted, and care taken that their crews were given at least a fair chance to save their lives in their open boats.

The precautions taken were meagre and haphazard enough, as was proved in distressing instance after instance in the progress of the cruel and unmanly business, but a certain degree of restraint was observed. The new policy has swept every restriction aside. Vessels of every kind, whatever their flag, their character, their cargo, their destination, their errand, have been ruthlessly sent to the bottom without warning and without thought of help or mercy for those on board, the vessels of friendly neutrals along with those of belligerents.

Even hospital ships and ships carrying relief to the sorely bereaved and stricken people of Belgium, though the latter were provided with safe conduct through the proscribed areas by the German Government itself and were distinguished by unmistakable marks of identity, have been sunk with the same reckless lack of compassion or of principle.

I was for a little while unable to believe that such things would in fact be done by any government that had hitherto subscribed to the humane practices of civilized nations. International law had its origin in the attempt to set up some law which would be respected and observed upon the seas, where no nation had right of dominion and where lay the free highways of the world.

This minimum of right the German Government has swept aside under the plea of retaliation and necessity and because it had no weapons which it could use at sea except these which it is impossible to employ as it is employing them without throwing to the winds all scruples of humanity or of respect for the understandings that were supposed to underlie the intercourse of the world.

I am not now thinking of the loss of property involved, immense and serious as that is, but only of the wanton and wholesale destruction of the lives of non-combatants, men, women, and children, engaged in pursuits which have always, even in the darkest periods of modern history, been deemed innocent and legitimate. Property can be paid for; the lives of peaceful and innocent people cannot be. The present German submarine warfare against commerce is a warfare against mankind.

It is a war against all nations. American ships have been sunk, American lives taken, in ways which it has stirred us very deeply to learn of, but the ships and people of other neutral and friendly nations have been sunk and overwhelmed in the waters in the same way. There has been no discrimination.

The challenge is to all mankind. Each nation must decide for itself how it will meet it. The choice we make for ourselves must be made with a moderation of counsel and a temperateness for judgement befitting our character and our motives as a nation. We must put excited feeling away. Our motive will not be revenge or the victorious assertion of the physical might of the nation, but only the vindication of right, of human right, of which we are only a single champion.

When I addressed the Congress on the twenty-sixth of February last I thought that it would suffice to assert our neutral rights with arms, our right to use the seas against unlawful interference, our right to keep our people safe against unlawful violence.

But armed neutrality, it now appears, is impracticable. Because submarines are in effect outlaws when used as the German submarines have been used against merchant shipping, it is impossible to defend ships against their attacks as the law of nations has assumed that merchantmen would defend themselves against privateers or cruisers, visible craft giving chase upon the open sea. It is common prudence in such circumstances, grim necessity indeed, to endeavour to destroy them before they have shown their own intention.

They must be dealt with upon sight, if dealt with at all. The German Government denies the right of neutrals to use arms at all within the areas of the sea which it has proscribed, even in the defence of rights which no modern publicist has ever before questioned their right to defend.

The intimation is conveyed that the armed guards which we have placed on our merchant ships will be treated as beyond the pale of law and subject to be dealt with as pirates would be. Armed neutrality is ineffectual enough at best; in such circumstances and in the face of such pretensions it is worse than ineffectual: it is likely only to produce what it was meant to prevent; it is practically certain to draw us into the war without either the rights or the effectiveness of belligerents".
 
Last edited:
Part II of president Wilsons address to Congress

"There is one choice we cannot make, we are incapable of making: we will not choose the path of submission and suffer the most sacred rights of our Nation and our people to be ignored or violated. The wrongs against which we now array ourselves are no common wrongs; they cut to the very roots of human life.

With a profound sense of the solemn and even tragical character of the step I am taking and of the grave responsibilities which it involves, but in unhesitating obedience to what I deem my constitutional duty, I advise that the Congress declare the recent course of the Imperial German Government to be in fact nothing less than war against the government and people of the United States; that it formally accept the status of belligerent which has thus been thrust upon it; and that it take immediate steps not only to put the country in a more thorough state of defence but also to exert all its power and employ all its resources to bring the Government of the German Empire to terms and end the war.

What this will involve is clear. It will involve the utmost practicable cooperation in counsel and action with the governments now at war with Germany, and, as incident to that, the extension to those governments of the most liberal financial credits, in order that our resources may so far as possible be added to theirs.

It will involve the organization and mobilization of all the material resources of the country to supply the materials of war and serve the incidental needs of the Nation in the most abundant and yet the most economical and efficient way possible. It will involve the immediate full equipment of the navy in all respects but particularly in supplying it with the best means of dealing with the enemy's submarines.

It will involve the immediate addition to the armed forces of the United States already provided for by law in case of war at least five hundred thousand men, who should, in my, opinion, be chosen upon the principle of universal liability to service, and also the authorization of subsequent additional increments of equal force so soon as they may be needed and can be handled in training.

It will involve also, of course, the granting of adequate credits to the Government, sustained, I hope, so far as they can equitably be sustained by the present generation, by well conceived taxation.

While we do these things, these deeply momentous things, let us be very clear, and make very clear to all the world what our motives and our objectives are. My own thought has not been driven from its habitual and normal course by the unhappy events of the last two months, and I do not believe that the thought of the Nation has been altered or clouded by them.

I have exactly the same things in mind now that I had in mind when I addressed the Senate on the twenty-second of January last; the same that I had in mind when I addressed the Congress on the third of February and on the twenty-sixth of February.

Our object now, as then, is to vindicate the principles of peace and justice in the life of the world as against selfish and autocratic power and to set up amongst the really free and self-governed peoples of the world such a concert of purpose and of action as will henceforth insure the observance of those principles.

Neutrality is no longer feasible or desirable where the peace of the world is involved and the freedom of its people, and the menace to that peace and freedom lies in the existence of autocratic governments backed by organized force which is controlled wholly by their will, not by the will of their people.

We have seen the last of neutrality in such circumstances. We are at the beginning of an age in which it will be insisted that the same standards of conduct and of responsibility for wrong done shall be observed among nations and their governments that are observed among the individual citizens of civilized states.

We have no quarrel with the German people. We have no feeling towards them but one of sympathy and friendship. It was not upon their impulse that their government acted in entering this war. It was not with their previous knowledge or approval.

It was a war determined upon as wars used to be determined upon in the old, unhappy days when peoples were nowhere consulted by their rules and wars were provoked and waged in the interest of dynasties or of little groups of ambitious men who were accustomed to use their fellow men as pawns and tools.

We are accepting this challenge of hostile purpose because we know that in such a Government, following such methods, we can never have a friend; and that in the presence of its organized power, always lying in wait to accomplish we know not what purpose, there can be no assured security for the democratic Governments of the world.

We are now about to accept gauge of battle with this natural foe to liberty and shall, if necessary, spend the whole force of the nation to check and nullify its pretensions and its power. We are glad, now that we see the facts with no veil of false pretence about them, to fight thus for the ultimate peace of the world and for the liberation of its peoples, the German peoples included: for the rights of nations great and small and the privilege of men everywhere to choose their way of life and of obedience.

The world must be made safe for democracy. Its peace must be planted upon the tested foundations of political liberty. We have no selfish ends to serve. We desire no conquest, no dominion. We seek no indemnities for ourselves, no material compensation for the sacrifices we shall freely make. We are but one of the champions of the rights of mankind. We shall be satisfied when those rights have been made as secure as the faith and the freedom of nations can make them.

Just because we fight without rancour and without selfish object, seeking nothing for ourselves but what we shall wish to share with all free peoples, we shall, I feel confident, conduct our operations as belligerents without passion and ourselves observe with proud punctilio the principles of right and of fair play we profess to be fighting for.

I have said nothing of the Governments allied with the Imperial Government of Germany because they have not made war upon us or challenged us to defend our right and our honour. The Austro-Hungarian Government has, indeed, avowed its unqualified endorsement and acceptance of the reckless and lawless submarine warfare adopted now without disguise by the Imperial German Government, and it has therefore not been possible for this Government to receive Count Tarnowski, the Ambassador recently accredited to this Government by the Imperial and Royal Government of Austria-Hungary; but that Government has not actually engaged in warfare against citizens of the Unites States on the seas, and I take the liberty, for the present at least, of postponing a discussion of our relations with the authorities at Vienna. We enter this war only where we are clearly forced into it because there are not other means of defending our rights.

It will be all the easier for us to conduct ourselves as belligerents in a high spirit of right and fairness because we act without animus, not in enmity towards a people or with the desire to bring any injury or disadvantage upon them, but only in armed opposition to an irresponsible government which has thrown aside all considerations of humanity and of right and is running amuck.

We are, let me say again, the sincerer friends of the German people, and shall desire nothing so much as the early reestablishment of intimate relations of mutual advantage between us - however hard it may be for them, for the time being, to believe that this is spoken from our hearts. We have borne with their present Government through all these bitter months because of that friendship - exercising a patience and forbearance which would otherwise have been impossible.

We shall, happily, still have an opportunity to prove that friendship in our daily attitude and actions towards the millions of men and women of German birth and native sympathy who live amongst us and share our life, and we shall be proud to prove it towards all who are in fact loyal to their neighbours and to the Government in the hour of test.

They are, most of them, as true and loyal Americans as if they had never known any other fealty or allegiance. They will be prompt to stand with us in rebuking and restraining the few who may be of a different mind and purpose. If there should be disloyalty, it will be dealt with with a firm hand of stern repression; but, if it lifts its head at all, it will lift it only here and there and without countenance except from a lawless and malignant few.

It is a distressing and oppressive duty, Gentlemen of the Congress, which I have performed in thus addressing you. There are, it may be, many months of fiery trial and sacrifice ahead of us. It is a fearful thing to lead this great peaceful people into war, into the most terrible and disastrous of all wars, civilization itself seeming to be in the balance.

But the right is more precious than peace, and we shall fight for the things which we have always carried nearest our hearts - for democracy, for the right of those who submit to authority to have a voice in their own Governments, for the rights and liberties of small nations, for a universal dominion of right by such a concert of free peoples as shall bring peace and safety to all nations and make the world itself at last free".

Source: Source Records of the Great War, Vol. V, ed. Charles F. Horne, National Alumni 1923
 
And it comes back to the captain of the U-20 being accused of "war crimes" for doing something that happened before and much afterwards. He was not alone, far from it. Whether it was sinking a passenger liner, shooting a pilot in a parachute or bombing a city...these are small instances of a much broader picture. They post rules and conventions regarding warfare, but warfare in itself is dehumanizing and brings out the worst in humanity.

To single out and villify a single person is to turn a blind eye to the bigger picture that lead to the event(s) and it does no good in this day and age to argue and "take sides" over it.

To do so, is simply falling into the same trap that caught so many over 100 years ago...

In the context of the values and expectations that were being applied in 1915, he was guilty of a war crime. The very notioon of any attack on merchant shipping, let alone unrestricted attacks, was considered a crime on the high seas, akin to piracy at the time.

Germany chose to advance the idea of submarine attacks on shipping as a military response to the blockades being imposed on it. as a means of warfare, it was highly successful. as a moral and politcal judgement it was a disaster and considered at the time by most nations as a crime. Military commanders must conduct their activities in accordance with the norms and "rules of war" (not sure if they so clear however), and as attacks on merchant shipping were seen by many as illegal, the commander of the U-Boat that attacked the Lusitania was guilty at that time of a war crime.

By WWII this perception had largely disipated. When Donitz was placed on trial for conducting unrestricted submarine warfare 1939-45, he was largely spared when nimitz stated that the allies were doing exactly the same thing against the Axis for most of the war. That effectively marked the end of the artificial limits on U-Boat attacks.
 
The Lusitania was from facts a blockade runner, that was also very clearly proclaimed from the german government to the US government.
The ship was transporting munition and other military-related facilities.

The USA and British government were highly aware of this, not for nothing there is a theory, that the british government did it on purpose to pilot the Lusitania through recognized U-Boat area.

One word to the war guilt one WWI.

There is often claimed the german government had given card blanche to the Austria-Hungary government after the assassination at Serbia.
A german historian:

Sönke Neitzel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

has done very intensive research about the summer crises 1914.

There are primary sources that Willy (not so much the german government) had done all to his power to prevent the war, he has telegraphed to Zar Nikolaus II till 29.07.1914 with the offer of extensive accommodations.

And to be specific:

1. Assassination at Serbia
2. Sharp reactions from Austria-Hungary government
3. Support of the Austria-Hungary government from the german government (their were allies)
4. Ultimatum from Austria-Hungary government to the serbian government
5. Same time visitaion of Raymond Poincaré at St. Petersburg and the full support of the Russian war plans
6. 25.07.1914 Russian mobilization
7. Ultimatum of the german government to Russia to stop mobilization
8. Russian troops invaded Ostprussia at 1 August 1914. Russian troops crossed the borderline of Ostprussia at 1 August 1914.

Countdown to War at 1.08.1914

King George wires to Tsar that Germany recommended British proposals to Austria on 30 July, but that Russian mobilisation was reported during Austrian Cabinet meeting.

Russia does not reply to German ultimatum expiring at noon.

French mobilisation ordered 3.40 p.m.

Germany, having ostensibly ordered general mobilisation 5 p.m., declares war on Russia 7.10 p.m.; makes out that Russians had crossed frontier in afternoon and begun war. (Declaration drafted before noon.)

http://www.firstworldwar.com/onthisday/1914_08_01.htm

That was all before any invasion to Begium started and to make this clear, to my very personal opinion, the invasion to Begium was an excuse for Great Britain to declare war, to the most powerfull and sharpest competitor economy on the World trade market.

To declare the german country, people and government as tyrann at August 1914 is to me an audaciousness!
 
Last edited:
The Lusitania was from facts a blockade runner, that was also very clearly proclaimed from the german government to the US government.
The ship was transporting munition and other military-related facilities.

The USA and British government were highly aware of this, not for nothing there is a theory, that the british government did it on purpose to pilot the Lusitania through recognized U-Boat area.


No argument that the Germans were clear on what they were going to do. Im not challenging the British complicity theories. so what is essentially my answer. The British may have played the Germans, but the Germans were at war, and deserved all that was coming to them. tough luck. Blockade runners are not illegal, but there were rules for engagement for Guerre De Course which had been in place since Napoleon (and before that) that all western civilised nations had acquiesced or agreed to. To be legal, attacks against shipping had to be undertaken in a certain way. Conducted contrary to those conventions, and the attacks amounted or were considered piracy.

The Germans chose to ignore those conventions, and were widely castigated for that. not just by her enemies. nearly all of the neutrals also criticised her and considered her actions to be illegal, including the US. The Germans chose to break the rules of war, as they existed at that time, and chose to order their captains to undertake what were seen by most as criminal acts. The commanders should have refused such illegal orders, but did not. That makes them complicit and equally guilty a their masters.

What mitigates all this is that submarines are inherently an anti shipping weapon, and the rules so strongly advocated by the allies and the neutrals were outmoded (and unworkable). Thats not the point however. The Germans should have repudiated the rules of war for attacks on shipping on the high seas before the war even broke out. Even then, I doubt they could have avoided the fallout that followed. It was the nuclear or NBC warfare of1914, and it carried the same sort of baggage as a nuclear attack of today. But they could hardly have managed this issue any worse than they did. They gave their word to a major neutral to restrict their U-Boat operations to a certain procedure, and then openly broke that agreement. They then rubbed salt into an already fatal wound in their international standing by making foolhardy and stupid advances to the Mexicans. The result from that point was never in doubt, and germany from that point until 1945 correctly branded a pariah state
 
Oh yea the bad and even worst germans!
The people, which broke every declaration or treaty!

What about France and the Ruhr occupation and the thousands of german dead people through peacefull opposition?
A Ruhr occupasition that could be only stopped by Great Britain and the USA before France declared the whole Ruhr area to french territory.
What about the votes at Polen 1919 from the versaille treaty?

Yes I see the german pariah state from 1914 till 1932 and your very simplified historical view of the world.

I don't fill any fuel in this discussion, this answer from you is enough to me, to estimate your view of the world and your anglo american biases.
I have a very sophisticated other opinion, but for the forum peace I will not go in any more discussion, because it is simply useless to such a revanchist bonehead.

Edit:

It is very ver very enlightening how you defend the USA panamerican neutrality zone (Atlantic) and the USA neutrality from 1939 till 19941 plus the betrayal of many german neutral ships through the US navy, and at the same time, to accuse the german government and military between 1914-18, despite many declarations and warnings to all Allied goverments inclusive USA and Great Britain about blockade runners and war shipping to Great Britain.

It shows your biases in very bright light!
 
Last edited:
Response to Parsifal...
Wilson was a great man, committed to peace at almost any cost. Witness his speech, "A man too proud to fight. A Nation too right to fight." I agree that the "Zimmerman telegram" was the straw that broke the proverbial camels back. But, aside from the epic voyage of the German submarine Deutschland, the American government was pretty much doing the "lend-lease" thing to the Allies.
I prefer to look at things honestly, and to say that Germany was a "pariah" state from (I guess the date of the telegram, or the unrestricted U-boat offensive, not sure what you meant.) until 1945, is not correct.
I fail to understand why the idea of mis-doings of all governments of that time offends you. No slights intended of your Grandfather's service, or your Dad's service, (my own father was a WW2 U.S.N. Veteran.), But look at history with a critical eye, there is enough blame to go around when we are talking about the cause of WW1.
 
Last edited:
I think the cause was much earlier. The Americans were apalled by the German behaviour in Belgium in 1914. And it's true that the Germans behaved unnecessary cruel there. It was that early that the Americans bound themselves to the allies already, although I doubt they fully realised it at the time.

I agree. Atleast in regards of swaying the US away from nutrality. I don't think it is what pushed them to war though. I believe as with the war itself, there was many factors.

It was only a matter of time.
 
The Begium issue, was a direct reaction to the Russian troops, which crossed the german boderline 01.08.1914 and the full support of the french inclusive mobilization, to the russian war plans.
 
Last edited:
O.K., I'll try.
The Lusitiania was sunk by a German submarine.
Discuss.

I understand trust me, but Nazi Germany and the occupation of the Rhineland, or how the evil Germans were the sole aggressors and cause of WW1, as well as war guilt children should have who were born in Germany decades after the war have nothing to do with the Lusitania.

This apologist, will refrain from saying anything else on that matter. :lol:
 
Response to Parsifal...
there is enough blame to go around when we are talking about the cause of WW1.

we arent talking directly about the causes of WWI. We are talking about the significance of the Lusitania attack. The thread has waxed and waned around the importance of Lusitania in the US road to war. facts are Lusitania loss, of itself, was just a minor footnote, and of no relevancce to the causes of the war (since the war preceded it). As an element of the ongoing German u-boat campaign it played a part in the road to war for the US, but not a significant role. It was the nature and resumption of unrestricted U-boat attacks that did that, not Lusitania, not british actions, or actions by the russians or anybody else except the actions by germany concerning their conduct of the war. unless you subscribe to the crackpot ideas that the US was the agressor in its DoW.

US reasons for the entry into the war, two years later are linked to the return to the unrestricted warfare, the attrocities in belgium (to a very minor extent), and the direct threats planned or attempted by germany vis Zimmerman.
 
Yep, Me too.



If people want to dicuss the legality of the sinking thats fine, or if the Lusitania was the reasonfor US entry into the war, or if the Capt. was a criminal. At least it is related, but the other stuff is just an opportunity for the "apologists" and "simplistic people" to insult and detract and spread agendas whatever they may be.
 
Last edited:
The Lusitania was a blockade runner. The Lusitania was under the direct command of the british Admirality and the british government was majority owner.
The Lusitania was transporting military-related facilities.
After the declaration brithish seas to operational war zones of the german goverment from 04.02.1915 the Lusitania was a legitimate goal for every german navy vessel.
This was consolidated to the proclamation to the US government from Germany.

J. Kent Layton: Lusitania. An illustrated history. Published by author, 2007
 
we arent talking directly about the causes of WWI. We are talking about the significance of the Lusitania attack. The thread has waxed and waned around the importance of Lusitania in the US road to war. facts are Lusitania loss, of itself, was just a minor footnote, and of no relevancce to the causes of the war (since the war preceded it). As an element of the ongoing German u-boat campaign it played a part in the road to war for the US, but not a significant role. It was the nature and resumption of unrestricted U-boat attacks that did that, not Lusitania, not british actions, or actions by the russians or anybody else except the actions by germany concerning their conduct of the war. unless you subscribe to the crackpot ideas that the US was the agressor in its DoW.

US reasons for the entry into the war, two years later are linked to the return to the unrestricted warfare, the attrocities in belgium (to a very minor extent), and the direct threats planned or attempted by germany vis Zimmerman.
I don't even know how to respond to this.
I feel that these issues were addressed earlier.
 
It really makes me sad when a thread with a simple technical question degenerates rapidly into neo-nationalistic finger-pointing and flag-waving. I'd like to believe that the members of this fine forum - the only one in the internet I pay any attention to on a regular basis - are mature enough to avoid these "my dad can beat up your dad" "na uh" "uh huh" schoolyard exchanges. Unfortunately, it seems that my cynic nature is being reinforced on a regular basis.

I almost wish I could get angry at the perpetrators, but what would that accomplish?

Now, if you will excuse me I will step down off my soapbox and watch Robin Williams' "Toys".

Peace out (and I mean that)
 
It really makes me sad when a thread with a simple technical question degenerates rapidly into neo-nationalistic finger-pointing and flag-waving. I'd like to believe that the members of this fine forum - the only one in the internet I pay any attention to on a regular basis - are mature enough to avoid these "my dad can beat up your dad" "na uh" "uh huh" schoolyard exchanges. Unfortunately, it seems that my cynic nature is being reinforced on a regular basis.

I almost wish I could get angry at the perpetrators, but what would that accomplish?

Now, if you will excuse me I will step down off my soapbox and watch Robin Williams' "Toys".

Peace out (and I mean that)

You have been here long enough to see that it is not the case. Usually it is the same detractors as well...
 
It really makes me sad when a thread with a simple technical question degenerates rapidly into neo-nationalistic finger-pointing and flag-waving. I'd like to believe that the members of this fine forum - the only one in the internet I pay any attention to on a regular basis - are mature enough to avoid these "my dad can beat up your dad" "na uh" "uh huh" schoolyard exchanges. Unfortunately, it seems that my cynic nature is being reinforced on a regular basis.

I almost wish I could get angry at the perpetrators, but what would that accomplish?

Now, if you will excuse me I will step down off my soapbox and watch Robin Williams' "Toys".

Peace out (and I mean that)

Fair enough

The original opening post was

They say it went down in like 18 minutes. Something like that. And half that time it's just sitting there with its ass-end up for its nose having been stuck in the mud in 300 foot of water. How does an 800 foot liner like that go down that decisively and dramatically? I think you all know where I'm going with this. What do you think? That must have been some torpedo
.

It was determined pretty rapidly that it was in fact a blockade runner. It was then inferred that

a) It was a significant factor in the entry of the US to the war, and further, that it was a major cause of WWI. neither claim has nay basis in the truth

b) It was an almost deliberate loss engineereed by the British. Maybe, but I doubt it. For no other reason than it carried too high a risk to the whole ruse blowing up in the Admiralties face if the intent was found out.

c) The Uboats were not acting illegally in sinking the Lusitania


My response to these basic points of discussion are: The Lusitania had very little to do with the US entry into the war, and nothing to do with the outbreak of the war in general The sinking of the Lusitania was part of the German U-Boat campaign, which was always viewed as military operations of questionable legality. However the resumption/commencement of the unrestricted operations was clearly in breach of the accepted rules of war as they existed at that time and also in breach of the Sussex agreement. There is nothing moral, judgemental, or apologist or any other of the attempts to derail this thread in those statements. As an aside and admittedly offtopic , the unrestricted U-Boat campaign was clearly in breach of internationally accepted rules of engagement and agreements that the germans themselves had agreed to and then broke. Therein lies your primary reason for US entry, and therein also lies one of the reasons why Germany was treated by a member of a leper colony until 1945.

None of this sits in judgement of the germans, or anybody for that matter, however distasteful it might be to bring these issues up. They are statements of basic fact. In some form or another there is a connection to Lusitania, though some of it is a bit tenuous. we should not really dive into the causes of the war, or the war guilt, or war crimes, apologies dim wittedness or any of the other spurious things that people feel they need to contually raise in the name of "getting this thread back on topic" 9including, but not restricted to, myself). or any of that stuff. We should avoid trying to pass opinion as fact, or attempting to justify the facts by loose interpretations or rationalization of actions taken.

I dont see how we can explore the technical aspects of the attack much further than we have unless we are going to enter the technical aspects of the U-Boat , the torpedo, the ship or the like
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back