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Given that heavy bombers are going to operate at higher altitudes and Soviet aircraft engines had serious problems with altitude due to lack of production turbo or higher altitude superchargers even in 1944, diesel aero-engines and more of them might have been the answer.On the long transatlantic routes, the Jumo 205 Diesel engine was a very economic engine due to the low fuel consumption. On the other hand these long range routes with hours of cruise power were an optimum for the Diesel engines.
There is problem with 2 stage superchargers and low octane fuel.
There are ways to minimize the problem but if you are trying to compress the air at 28,000ft to 1.4 Ata you are trying to compress it 4.3 times the air pressure at 28,000ft which means you are heating it up an awful lot.
A two stage compressor will heat it slightly less than a single stage compressor.
Using water injection can cool the intake air (at a cost of weight)
Using intercoolers can cool the intake air (at a cost in weight and drag and volume)
Good compressor design helps
Allied use of high octane fuels meant they could use more compression of the air while only using 1 or 2 of these solutions and use their existing engines (Merlins, Allisons and several radials). Germans need to use more solutions at the same time. P-47 and F4U-1D and Some F6Fs wound up using both intercooler and water injection. Maybe they could have used bigger intercoolers instead but that might have required more redesign (bigger airframe?).
Getting the desired pressure from the compressor/s was not hard. Getting the engine to survive the heat problem with lower octane fuel was. P-63 didn't use an intercooler, it used high octane fuel and a crap load of water injection and still didn't work well much above 25,000ft.
Germans need to figure out how to put about 15 cubic ft 2nd stage and intercooler inside a Bf 109
or even more volume for a Fw 190D.
Two-stage superchargers were why the Americans were able to escort their bombers ultimately deep into enemy territory, making strategic bomber casualties acceptable. Given the same level of technology and production, interceptors will defeat the escorting fighters, and then massacre the bombers.Not sure why we're talking about octane considering the OP postulated diesel?
Sure, a diesel engine can also benefit from a good two-stage supercharger and intercooler, but not due to avoiding knock.
Anyway, a good long-range aircraft that could replace the FW200 and He177 as well as be used for long-range bombing could have been useful.
Also looking at it from a strategic perspective, the German's chance of winning their war was by quick lightning strikes knocking their opponents out before they had time to kick their industrial war machines into gear.
Diesels were rather popular in the 1930s and very early 40s because their good efficiency offered advantages for long range flight.Not sure why we're talking about octane considering the OP postulated diesel?
Sure, a diesel engine can also benefit from a good two-stage supercharger and intercooler, but not due to avoiding knock.
This I disagree with, the Soviets had massive factories that were highly concentrated and vulnerable. Giant armadas were not necessary, the US used a few hundred to wreck most of the Schweinfurt and Regensburg facilities in one raid. They failed in their goal because of existing German stockpiles of ball bearing and lack of follow up raids. Large factories made very juicy targets, the Germans just had few of those and the few they had were extremely well defended. Also they had very integrated and quality air defense that forced US bombers to operate above the rated altitude of their bombsights to stay reasonably safe from FLAK as well as pretty bad bombing practices like all dropping as soon as the master bombardier dropped his load. Accuracy suffered badly, so coupled with high attrition the Allies needed vast fleets of bombers. The Soviets lacked sufficient or integrated air defense, so neither threat is a problem for them. So long as they are not daylight bombing Moscow from low altitude they should be largely untouchable to Soviet air defenses, plus their targets are bigger than what the Allies were facing in Germany. Soviet centralization is very good for economies of scale in production, but very bad when facing bombing attacks.That being said, as others mentioned fundamentally Germany lacked the industrial muscle to produce the massive four-engined armadas the Western Allies employed. A small number of strategic bombers would be unlikely to cause the desired effect on enemy industrial production. Also looking at it from a strategic perspective, the German's chance of winning their war was by quick lightning strikes knocking their opponents out before they had time to kick their industrial war machines into gear. Getting drawn into a war of attrition was a losing recipe for Germany. And what is a large strategic bomber force, if not a tool for waging such an attritional war? So by diverting resources from things that would enable this quick lightning victory (trucks for Wehrmacht?), I suspect they would actually reduce their chance of winning the war.
The 207 had a turbo-supercharger and 15000m altitude. The Jumo 208 was the more interesting variant.Diesels were rather popular in the 1930s and very early 40s because their good efficiency offered advantages for long range flight.
Heavy diesel engine and less total fuel could equal lighter engine but more fuel for the same length trip.
Unfortunately the gasoline engine guys were almost always one step ahead and/or kept moving the goal post/finish line.
Junkers comes up with 204 in 1932, when the gasoline engine guys were using 70-77 octane gasoline. Junkers works on the 205 while the gas guys develop 87 octane fuel which allows for more compression and more power/ fuel economy from the gas engines. By the late 30s the US was working on 90-92 octane gasoline and many countries were working on moderate supercharging which allowed cruising at 7-10,000ft for better speed and fuel economy without have the passengers wear oxygen masks. Boeing actually made a few pressurized transports going into service in the summer of 1940.
View attachment 854724
These could cruise at 20,000ft. The war ended that endeavor but the sister B-17s showed the advantages in range using high octane gas, 2 stage superchargers and flying in thin air at high altitudes.
You have got me wondering................What could Douglas have done by putting pressure cabin the the nose of a DC-3, fitting long wing tips on the wings and swiping a pair of engines with turbos from a B-17 (or B-24) to make a quicky high altitude recon plane?
Back the original subject. Every time the diesel boys got close (got the engines to run reliably without much babying for example) the Gas guys got higher octane gas and higher compression or lighter weight engines (power to weight ratio) and changed the total weight of engines+ fuel for a given length flight back away from the Diesel side.
The Jumo 207s seemed to be over 1700lbs for a 1000hp engine. Compared to gas engines that is around 4-500lbs too much unless you are trying to fly really far. Or you get 1300-1500hp engines and get a crap load of fuel off the ground in a larger plane.
The Soviets lacked sufficient or integrated air defense, so neither threat is a problem for them.
So even with only say 200-300 operational and dedicated strategic bombers they could severely disrupt Soviet production from 1941-43. This of course is not talking about a potential FW200-like maritime role either.
The big issues of diesel vs. petrol for aero engines is that most military use required it to be used near the top operating speeds. They tried the Jumo 205 on the Ju86 to improve fuel economy, but due to the need to evade fighters they would run the engines at their top operating level and try to dramatically speed up for maneuvers even on twin engines. Diesels are not designed to operate like that, so the Luftwaffe switched to petrol engines to take advantage of being able to speed them up rapidly without causing damage from repeatedly doing so (or at least less so than diesels).
However, for strategic bombers that is simply not necessary, since they rely on bomber formations with heavy defensive armament and interlocking fields of fire to stay safe. In that case they can operate on economical continuous power so they can get the necessary range. You don't see B17s maneuvering like you do with twin engines when trying to evade enemy fighters. Speed and rapid changes of speed are simply outside the design profile of these long-range heavy bombers, which is ideal for diesel engines. So really in this case you just need an engineer willing to buck the Luftwaffe leadership's request for certain engines and leverage Junker's experience with inhouse diesel designs and of course Walter Wever not dying so early and being willing to let the Ju89 (and Jumo 205/7/8) develop its potential.
Ok, it is about 1850km from Smolensk to Tankograd or well over twice the distance from Eastern England to Berlin.Having a dedicated strategic bomber that could hit the Ural factories in 1941 from say Smolensk or even Bryansk would be a huge problem for Tankograd with its extreme concentration of very large targets that were basically undefended from air attack.
Not sure why you think they weren't already pouring resources into that and failing badly:I think it's safe to assume that had the Germans started investing into a serious strategic bombing capability, the Soviets would have responded by improving their own air defense. With the Soviets grinding down the Luftwaffe, I'm sure the Western Allies would be happy to help with material support.
When? In 1942 they had to mobilize everything they had, including their training force to be able to launch a single 1000 bomber raid. Later on they could do that more regularly, but only at immense cost and having only 50 divisions. In fact by 1944 they were disbanding divisions and even companies to keep up strength due to lack of manpower.For comparison, the UK Bomber Command was capable of launching main force raids with around a thousand aircraft. In order to be able to do this, during the war the UK produced around 16000 four engined bombers (Stirling, Halifax, Lancaster), to cover for losses, replacement with newer models, and some amount siphoned off to other roles like training, etc.
In Regensburg, all six main workshops of the Messerschmitt factory were destroyed or severely damaged, as were many supporting structures including the final assembly shop. In Schweinfurt, the destruction was less severe but still extensive. The two largest factories, Kugelfischer & Company and Vereinigte Kugellager Fabrik I, suffered 80 direct hits.[28] 35,000 m2 (380,000 square feet) of buildings in the five factories were destroyed, and more than 100,000 m2 (1,000,000 square feet) suffered fire damage.[29] All the factories except Kugelfischer had extensive fire damage to machinery when incendiaries ignited the machine oil used in the manufacturing process. Albert Speer reported an immediate 34 percent loss of production.
Why would we do that? The British and Germans are going after very different things. The USAAF 8th AF in 1943 is comparable to where the Germans would be at ITTL in 1941, but with a much weaker opponent.So if we assume the same 16:1 ratio for the Germans, throughout the war they'd then need to produce about 3200-4800 strategic bombers in order to sustain a main force of 200-300. With 6 engines per aircraft (per the original post in the thread), and assuming each engine on an aircraft needs about 1.5 engines for replacements, spare parts etc.(?), we end up with requiring on the order of 30000-45000 engines.
Remind me of an example from history showing that with aviation diesel?History is full of diesel engines working perfectly fine with throttling up and down, and running at high power for a long time, so I'm not sure this is something inherent to diesels, but rather some deficiency of the Jumo aero diesels that could have been fixed with more development.
Good points, but I'll respond in detail.Ok, it is about 1850km from Smolensk to Tankograd or well over twice the distance from Eastern England to Berlin.
It also about 1200km from the German border to Smolensk.
So for this plan to work the Germans have to............
1. Design a bomber (or start work) in 1939-40 on a bomber with a 3700km range.
2. Arrange for production of that bomber.
3. Come up with an army that can capture and hold Smolensk in 1942-43 (plan on it in 1940)
4. Arrange for the logistics to be in place in 1942-43. Like the railroads and rail cars needed to supply such a force, including aircrew and mechanics.
Local engine repair/overhaul (or at least such a shop in Poland or Lithuania).
How many tons of fuel per raid?
How many support personnel for every plane, 12-18,000 men for this bomber force?
5. Come up with a navigation system that will work at 2000 km. (beam systems used over England will not work)
In Regensburg, all six main workshops of the Messerschmitt factory were destroyed or severely damaged, as were many supporting structures including the final assembly shop.
The Soviets basically did a piss-poor job of it. As noted in the Rand report the 700 sorties against Gorky in June of 1943 suffered lower than 1% loss rate. Even in 1944 strikes against major rail yards suffered negligible losses. The Soviets lacked a national integrated air defense system, it was all regionally based and most of their efforts were focused on major political areas like Moscow and Leningrad. Other than those 2 cities the Soviets had minor defenses covering everything else. Also, even in 1944 their fighters lacked the altitude to reach the few He177s raids that were launched:6. Figure out how to stop the Soviets from intercepting the bombers on the way in or out.
at 400kph it is going to take over 4 1/2 hours in and 4 1/2 hours out the Germans are not going to be able to do much in the way of dog legs like the 8th Air Force did and there is no large body of water like the North Sea to offer any sort of refuge. Granted there is an awful lot of Russia without AA guns but that is not quite the same thing. Chinese actually did fairly well with telephones spotting Japanese raids (20-30 minute warning) because of slow bombers, large area/distances and limited targets. Russia is sort of the same. Soviets have over 6 hours to arrange for intercept on the way out?
On the Eastern Front, the most notable action by the He 177 was a mass raid of some 87 aircraft against railway targets in the Velikiye Luki area, about 450 km (280 mi) west of Moscow on 19 July 1944. The participating Staffeln flew in three large attack wedges of about thirty aircraft, each loaded with four 250 kg (551 lb) or two 500 kg (1,102 lb) bombs.[70] During this action, carried out in daylight at altitudes in excess of 6,000 m (19,690 ft), losses were relatively light. The Soviet Air Force, equipped mainly for low-level interception and ground-attack roles, could do little to hinder the high-flying bombers.[71][72]
1x 13mm MG is not going to do more than scratch the paint of a heavy bomber. As I said the Germans had trouble with 20mm cannons vs. 4 engine bombers.
- Guns:
- 1 × 12.7 mm Berezin UBS machine gun
- 2 × 7.62 mm ShKAS machine guns in the cowl
Having to get that close to a heavy bomber with its defensive guns was suicide.Pilot Alexander E. Shvarev recalled: "The Mig was perfect at altitudes of 4,000 m and above. But at lower altitudes it was, as they say, 'a cow'. That was the first weakness. The second was its armament: weapons failure dogged this aircraft. The third weakness was its gunsights, which were inaccurate: that's why we closed in as much as we could and fired point blank".[18]
- Guns: ** One 7.92 mm (0.312 in) MG 81 machine gun in nose.
- One 20 mm (0.8 in) MG 151 cannon in forward belly gondola, and one in tail.
- Two 13 mm (0.5 in) MG 131 machine gun in FDL 131Z remotely operated forward dorsal turret, and one in rear belly gondola, one in manned HDL 131/1 aft dorsal turret
Again, ~1200 He177's built IOTL. Also the Jumo 205/7 was considerably easier to make/service than the later war engines, especially the DB610.Now keep three hundred 6-engined bombers in operational service. Some math, pardon it all:
Assuming 6 crewmen per plane, that's 1800 aircrew -- who will of course suffer attrition not only from combat but operational losses. You'll need to replace them. The planes that they died in, ditto. There's also engines, which even eithout any losses must be swapped out. These replacement issues will each be ongoing affairs, meaning you need good pipelines for airframes, engines, and trained crew.
So now the question is, what do you not build in order to replace combat and operational losses for these heavy bombers? What airplanes don't fly because these 6-engined things are eating up factory floorspace and output?
None of this is addressing weather so far. I think we can all agree that the weather on the Eastern Front was hard on equipment even as it sat on the ground. That will keep sortie rates lower, and increase demand on maintenance.
Given all that, I think it's fair to say that a force of three hundred bombers might be able, optimally, to launch 200 sorties per day. If they could find and hit the target accurately, sure, bad day at the office for the machinists. But as we see in the current war, Russians are adept at adapting and evolving to meet exigencies which will require more German industrial thinking, design, production, and also training demands.
I can't say you're wrong, but I also can't say I see answers to these issues.
And the FW200:
Number built 1,169[2]
Number built 276[1]
Also Kharkov:Brjansk (RUSS) (a.k.a. Briansk, Bryansk) (53 16 N – 34 20 E) General: airfield (Fliegerhorst) in W Russia 200 km SE Smolensk and 3.6 km NNW of Bryansk city center. Rated for bombers and used by all types of aircraft while in Luftwaffe service. History: a prewar Soviet AF base. Dimensions: approx. 1120 x 1820 meters (1225 x 1990 yards). Surface and Runways: sparse grass covering on clay sub-soil. Paved (concrete) runway measuring approx. 1000 x 73 meters (1100 x 80 yards).
Charkow (RUSS/UKR) (a.k.a. Kharkov, Kharkiv) General: principal city in E Ukraine. Total of 12 airfields identified: Charkow I, Charkow II, Charkow III, Charkow-Alexejewka (aka. KharkovAlekseyevka), Charkow-Besljudowka (a.k.a. Kharkov-Bezlyudovka), Charkow-Grobli I (a.k.a. Kharkov-Grobli I), Charkow-Grobli II (a.k.a. Kharkov-Grobli II), Charkow-Korotitsch (a.k.a. Kharkov-Korotich), Charkow/Nord (Kharkov/North), Charkow/Süd (Charkow-Osnowa), CharkowRogan (Kharkov-Rogan), Charkow-Sortikowka (Kharkov- and CharkowWoitschenko (Kharkov-Voichenko). By all accounts, the Lw. used 7 airfields around Kharkov and these are listed below. In May 42 and at the end of 1942 there were only three in permanent use (North, Rogan and Voichenko).
Much more info is in the document. The Luftwaffe was only using crappy frontline grass fields for short ranged units.Charkow I (RUSS/UKR) (a.k.a. Kharkov, Kharkiv, Charkow/Nord, Kharkov/North, Charkow-Stadt?, Pomerki?) (ZNr. 10-0053) (c. 50 01 33 N – 36 16 07 E) General: the main airfield (Fliegerhorst) at Kharkov 1941-43 and located 5 km NE of Kharkov city center. Usually called Charkow/Nord 1941-42 and then Charkow I in 1943. Lw. use from c. 1 Nov 41 to Aug 43. History: no information found. Dimensions: 1920 x 820 meters (2100 x 895 yards). Surface and Runways: Grass surface. There was no runway on Oct/Nov 1941. A perimeter road encircled the airfield. Fuel and Ammunition: had a fuel dump with a storage capacity of 200,000 liters and a munitions dump with a capacity of 200 metric tons in Oct 41. Infrastructure: had 9 hangars but the Russians destroyed 7 of these when they evacuated the airfield in late Oct 41. Beginning in Dec 41, new infrastructure built and existing infrastructure enlarged to accommodate two Gruppen. Dispersal: had 14 blast bays for sheltering aircraft by 8 May 43. Defenses: airfield defensive perimeter with fortifications and pillboxes constructed Dec 42 – May 42.
Honestly 200 sorties a day is generous. Downtime for heavy bombers doing longer range strikes was probably 2-3 per week per bomber depending on what servicing is needed. However, that should be plenty even if not going as far as the Urals. Gorky and Yaroslavl were major production areas that could be heavily worked over starting in 1942 if we assume the worst about getting these bombers into action and supply/intelligence/strategy issues. That's not counting the Soviet oil industry or Kazan with its aircraft engine factories. The Soviets could only adapt so much and as the repeated attacks on Gorky IOTL demonstrate was that they failed to deal wtih the strategic bombing threat. They had a number of constraints to deal with, especially power generation before 1944 due to the massive dislocation of industry. There were only so many places they could set up factories after evacuation and house workers (even then they did that badly and wastage rates were horrible) due to lack of power. Dispersing of factories really wasn't an option either given how they were at the edge of collapse by late 1942 economically speaking.Given all that, I think it's fair to say that a force of three hundred bombers might be able, optimally, to launch 200 sorties per day. If they could find and hit the target accurately, sure, bad day at the office for the machinists. But as we see in the current war, Russians are adept at adapting and evolving to meet exigencies which will require more German industrial thinking, design, production, and also training demands.
If sustained attacks on Soviet industry were conducted that very well might have been enough to disrupt the Soviets to the point that they fail. The solution might be to evacuate more industry into the Urals and even if that is a solution the lack of sufficient energy and limited transportation to move things to the front could cause enough disruptions to cause them to fail. In 1941 most industry was evacuated from Moscow in case the city fell and due to aerial attack; as soon as it was safe they started bringing it back in 1942 because industry evacuated couldn't really be accommodated well elsewhere; Moscow that the existing house and energy as well as raw material in the oblast to sustain industry. All that means is adaptation to even worse circumstances might very well be enough to push them over the wrong knife's edge.The failure of the Soviet economy to collapse in 1942 demands explanation. In that year the Soviet war effort rested on a knife-edge. A battle of motivations took place in which a hundred million people made individual choices based on the information and incentives available. The decisions that individuals made were aimed either at victory or at defeat. The battle of motivations took place in the context of a balance of resources between the two sides that was indecisive. Within this context policy interventions by Stalin, Hitler, and Roosevelt could make a difference. Thus, where the balance of overall resources was indecisive, "moral, political, technical, and organizational factors" decided the outcome.
Again, ~1200 He177's built IOTL.
This is a big misconception. The MiG-3 was originally designed as a high-speed front-line fighter, and the engine's altitude characteristics did not make it a high-altitude interceptor - the shortcomings of the oil system usually prevented combat pilots from climbing above 8,000 meters, and at high altitudes, the engine's responsiveness was low - the throttle could only be operated very, very smoothly. It was used in air defense rather forcedly, as it was even less suitable for frontline service.The MiG3 was the best fighter the PVO (Soviet air defense) had that had an engine capable of reaching the necessary bomber altitudes.
Again, not all at once. If you're operating 300 sorties per day you're going to need 500 or so aircraft in a rotating inventory. The othr elephant you're ignoring is this: the He-177 taxed the German air industry to the point that the plane was an operational failure. Now you want this same industry which could not debug a simpler airplane to build something more complex?
You're also ignoring the fact that you're also positing 33% more engines per plane. 300 Uralbombers is 1800 engines, which implies a rotating stock probably twice that, and with ongoing production. What production are you going to skip to get this Uralbomber in the air and in useful numbers?
I'm unconvinced.
Two prototypes were created by attaching an extra pair of inner-wing segments to the wings of Ju 290 airframes and adding new sections to lengthen the fuselages....Its performance was satisfactory enough that the Air Ministry ordered six additional prototypes (Ju 390 V2 to V7) and 20 examples of the intended Ju 390A-1 production version.
Number built 19,000
Number built 42,400
Quantity 8758
Number built 68,248
I am aware, but it was the only fighter that the Soviets had in 1941 with a supercharger that would allow them to operate at the height heavy bombers would operate at. Later on they had access to higher altitude British and American fighters, but that was later than the 1942-1943 period.This is a big misconception. The MiG-3 was originally designed as a high-speed front-line fighter, and the engine's altitude characteristics did not make it a high-altitude interceptor - the shortcomings of the oil system usually prevented combat pilots from climbing above 8,000 meters, and at high altitudes, the engine's responsiveness was low - the throttle could only be operated very, very smoothly. It was used in air defense rather forcedly, as it was even less suitable for frontline service.
In general, it was an extremely unsuccessful aircraft. Only by the end of the war Mikoyan and Gurevich were able to turn it into something resembling a high-altitude interceptor. But by that time, piston engines were already considered obsolete.
Before the MiG-15 appeared, the best interceptors in the Soviet air defense were the Spitfire and the Kingcobra.
About 1/3rd of Soviet industry was in the Urals as of 1940, the Germans helped until 1932 in building it up during the cooperation period between the Reichswehr/German industry and the USSR. Clearly the Luftwaffe planners decided in 1933 that needing to be able to bomb the Urals was going to be a factor down the road.In the 1930s, the USSR did not have such a developed industry beyond the Urals. It was planned to be built in the 1940s, but the evacuation significantly accelerated the process. Therefore, it is not entirely clear why the Germans needed the Uralbomber in the mid-1930s.
I guess that later on, with a bit more adequate strategic planning, which initially assessed the enemy's strength and capabilities more soberly and with higher industrial output BEFORE and DURING the attack on the USSR (which was quite possible), Germany wouldn't need the Ural Bomber at all. In my opinion, the Germans had a good chance of reaching the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line in 1941. I believe that the loss of Moscow (and I consider the fact that it was possible to retain it as a miracle) would result in a large-scale crisis for the entire Soviet defense. The Germans were just a little short of reserves. And then conventional bombers would be enough — a range of 1,000 km would be sufficient to bomb factories in Perm, Sverdlovsk, and Chelyabinsk, and possibly disrupt oil production in the Urals ("the second Baku"). Long-range targets in Siberia would no longer be a priority—without supplies from the Urals, they would hardly be able to function.