Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
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USN aircraft non-combat losses at Philippine Sea 20 June 1944.
The losses were mainly due to the need for excessive loiter during night recovery of aircraft and the lack of practise in night carrier landing. Very few aircraft (~10) ran out of fuel prior to reaching the vicinity of the USN carriers.:
The relatively small Dauntless losses were due to several factors, but mainly from the fact that VB-10 was the last to leave their carrier and spent the least time airborne:
3 of the 35 dive bombers lost due to non-combat reasons were SBDs (29 SBDs participated in the attack), two from fuel starvation and one from a landing accident.
In one of the threads we had a member posted up losses sustained by the IJN during some of the major pacific engagements, I'm not sure which thread it was but the attacking forces were brutalised on numerous occasions with unsustainable loss of aircraft and crews, not just during the battles but lost on the way back after receiving battle damage.Ther wer only 2 Judys at Midway. Do you mean Kates
One thing that needs to be remembered is what we write and what me mean are two different things, I bet if we were all standing around a BBQ full of steaks and an esky full of beer, Australian beer, not that watery rubbish you guys drink we would all be chatting away like best mates.I have been guilty of similar posts in the past. I didn't really intend for them to read quite so hostile but, upon re-reading them the next morning, they DID come off pretty hostile
Sign me up!One thing that needs to be remembered is what we write and what me mean are two different things, I bet if we were all standing around a BBQ full of steaks and an esky full of beer, Australian beer, not that watery rubbish you guys drink we would all be chatting away like best mates.
True, but what percent of the total Japanese aircraft and Naval aircraft were on those carriers?
Not very much.
It was more of a blow to lose the pilots, I'd think, just because they weren't getting very many through training as replacements. And the ones they got weren't getting much in the way of lead-in combat fighter/bomber training. They were thrown into the war fresh out of flight school.
One thing that needs to be remembered is what we write and what me mean are two different things, I bet if we were all standing around a BBQ full of steaks and an esky full of beer, Australian beer, not that watery rubbish you guys drink we would all be chatting away like best mates.
Southwark Bitter ?Australian beer
You and i disagree sometimes, but I don't think you are delusional or an idiot. Same with Sr6 and most others on here. I don't pretend to have a monopoly on truth, and I am very well aware I'm not the only perceptive person here, nor do I think I'm immune to mistakes. To be clear, many here are better informed than I am about many aspects of WW2 aviation, that is what makes these discussions fun. I think this forum can be a little bit cliquish and I push back against that sometimes, but most of the people here seem nice and quite well informed. We are all just a bit opinionated.
But I do have limited patience for blatant self delusion or ideologically driven distortions. That doesn't mean the person is, but sometimes their posts are, and if it goes unchallenged more people can start taking on that kind of role and the whole thing spirals into stupidity. The suggestion that the Japanese were somehow inferior on some 'meta' level is irritating to me, (because it's not factual), especially when it's been clarified but persists in the face of the evidence / data. As is the tendency by some, sometimes, to put their thumb on the scale, cherry pick data etc., is also irritating and when you detect someone with that fanatical bent, you can basically either ignore it or point out the fallacies. Usually I ignore it, but sometimes I decide to step in front of it.
I am myself an historical researcher and author (not on aviation) yes, people who write historical narratives often have an agenda and are often at least partly mistaken. But history isn't limited to personal narratives of one or two people, it also includes a lot of far more prosaic - even boring - literary data, but which is typically a little less biased. Things like invoices, bills of lading, requisitions, inventories, lawsuits, testimonials from multiple witnesses etc. This too can be distorted, in a different way, but the more data you have and from as wide a variety of sources as possible, you can start to see a clearer picture. I think it is a bit of a cliche to claim that history is inevitably distorted. We can't ever know everything with full clarity - (without a time machine). But we can actually know a lot. More than people tend to assume.
During that battle 27 aircraft attacked the Hornet in one coordinated strike, only two returned, 93% loss rate, no one will convince me that extreme range and low speed maneuverability is worth that.Santa Cruz.
How many of that 46% were lost trying to land at night or ditched after not being able to find the carriers in the darkness?.The USN lost 81 out of 175 carrier aircraft (with armour & SSFT) available to them at Santa Cruz, or ~46%.
Sorry I'm getting the battles mixed up, it was Santa Cruz that cost the IJN 49% torpedo aircraft losses, 39% of dive bombers and 20% of fighters.As far as I am aware none of the US aircraft ditched after nightfall due to being unable to find their carrier. A significant number ditched - during daytime - due to not being able to find the carriers or running out of fuel before they could land.
One thing that needs to be remembered is what we write and what me mean are two different things, I bet if we were all standing around a BBQ full of steaks and an esky full of beer, Australian beer, not that watery rubbish you guys drink we would all be chatting away like best mates.
One of my favorites as well. Though I haven't been able to find it locally.and San Miguel have been my 'go to' when possible.Celebrator | Ayinger Privatbrauerei
Celebrator is a Doppelbock style beer brewed by Ayinger Privatbrauerei in Aying, Germany. Score: 96 with 7,095 ratings and reviews. Last update: 11-11-2024.www.beeradvocate.com
When smoking a brisket at 225F, I have to be careful that Celebrator not in the cooler, however - otherwise may miss the 'break and wrap'. God Bless the Oktoberfest at Munich in 1968 for introducing me.
And the Japanese would quite happily have upped the speed on their aircraft if they could have in a practical manner. The lack of the higher grade aviation fuels largely prevented this. How many really fast aircraft would the US have had if they had to rely on 87 grade. You would have to give up any power settings over about CR x MAP = 130 psi.
How many USN aircraft and ships were lost or damaged in exchange for the 25 IJN aircraft lost.
The USN would have been quite satisfied (in an operational sense) with that level of exchange. Obviously they would have been unhappy at the loss of life (as were the Japanese), but the USN higher ups would have been quite willing to make that trade if necessary. In fact, if it took only 25 aircraft lost per Japanese aircraft carrier in existence, the US higher ups would have had an orgasm.
The IJN lost 99 out of 203 carrier aircraft (with extreme range and low speed maneuverability) available to them at Santa Cruz, or ~49%.
The USN lost 81 out of 175 carrier aircraft (with armour & SSFT) available to them at Santa Cruz, or ~46%.
If the Japanese had also succeeded in sinking the Enterprise as a result of the battle (which was quite possible) the USN would have lost ~100% of the carrier capable aircraft available at the start of the battle. Would this mean that armour and SSFT on the USN aircraft were not worth that?
The simple fact is that the IJN managed to locate the USN fleet at a range where they could have launched an attack beyond the range at which the USN could have replied (short of suicide missions). Whether you want to call it bad luck for the IJN or good luck fo the USN (or both or something else), if they had realized the situation the extreme long range of their carrier aircraft would be lauded in history.
Same for Midway. Again, whether you want to call it bad luck for the IJN or good luck fo the USN (or both or something else), Midway could just have easily been a disaster for the USN, with Japan getting off relatively lightly, due to the extreme long range capability of their aircraft.
At both Midway and Santa Cruz, the extreme longer range of the IJN aircraft (vs the armour and SSFT of the USN aircraft) had very little to do with the outcome of the battle. How much it had to do with the loss of life to the aircrews is debatable.
The Japanese understood the speed vs maneuver concept quite well before the war with the Allies started, and understood boom & zoom tactics at least since the early-1930s (their training manuals include the tactic). They also demonstrated their understanding of boom & zoom in China in actual war (their use of the tactic in China is recorded by the Japanese, the Chinese, and the various mercenary and 'volunteer' groups).
They also understood the idea of teamwork and wingmen (again this in their training manuals), although it took slightly different form than it did later in the West.
They also understood the value of speed - one of the reasons the A6M and Ki-43 were developed was due the perceived need for aircraft that were significantly faster then their opponents at the time.
And the Japanese would quite happily have upped the speed on their aircraft if they could have in a practical manner. The lack of the higher grade aviation fuels largely prevented this. How many really fast aircraft would the US have had if they had to rely on 87 grade. You would have to give up any power settings over about CR x MAP = 130 psi.