GregP
Major
They built three A6M1s, 1500 A6M2s, 721 A6M3s, two A6M 4s, 4934 A6M5s, 2961 A6M6s, and 164 each A6M7 and A6M8. That totals 10,449 A6Ms.
I don't think you can get 60 A6M1s from that production run. More likely A6M2s.
Cheers.
March until October of 1940: fighters' ranking
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
They built three A6M1s, 1500 A6M2s, 721 A6M3s, two A6M 4s, 4934 A6M5s, 2961 A6M6s, and 164 each A6M7 and A6M8. That totals 10,449 A6Ms.
I don't think you can get 60 A6M1s from that production run. More likely A6M2s.
Cheers.
The speed a Zero stiffens up gets less and less with each telling. I've read as high as 320 mph from actual reports and 300 mph was the official figure I've always seen. Also it was ONLY the ailerons that stiffened up, a Zero has good elevators at any speed. How exactly is a Hurricane with a top speed of 315-330 fresh off the factory floor supposed to MAINTAIN 300+ mph in a fight after being in combat for a while? A Zero could do a loop from cruise speed and GAIN altitude. A Hurricane can't outrun it, can't out climb it, can't out turn it, has much slower acceleration and can't out dive it before a Zero can get in a good burst. Once they are at the merge a Hurricane has 0 cards to play. The Hurricane is tough? They said during the Battle of Britain you could tell the Hurricane pilots from the Spitfire pilots in the hospital because the Hurricane pilots were all burned to a crisp. They had a plate of armor behind the seat, so you better hope that Zero doesn't fire at you unless he's directly behind. All those Brewster Buffalos at Midway had armor and self sealing tanks, they went down in flames just the same.
BlackSheep
Banned
- 443
- May 31, 2018
I am not 100% behind this comment. If correct, I would add the caveat being, Spitfires/ME109s would butcher the Zeros, as long as good team tactics were practiced. It was just two short years later, when RAF Spitfire pilots ignored US Marine ace Joe Foss's (Wildcat/Corsair Ace and Medal of Honor winner for actions with the Cactus Airforce at Guadalcanal and future Senator) advice regarding team tactics and avoiding low speed one-on-one dogfights against the Zero fighters resulting in devastating losses through early 1943 until a changing of tactics started to balance the score.
In 1940 Zero's would be flying into the best coordinated air defense systems in the world with both the Spit and 109 at their best, neither the Luftwaffe in 1940 or the RAF in 1941 could crack the other side, thinking the A6M will do any better is folly.
buffnut453
Captain
So, again, you're comparing the IJNAF A6M and not some Luftwaffe adaptation of the airframe which would, inevitably, be considerably heavier due to armor, self-sealing fuel tanks, radio, parachute etc.
At risk of being churlish, if all you have is effective elevator control, then you have 2 options. Option 1 is to push the stick forward, the cows get bigger, and your speed increases, further exacerbating your control issues. Option 2 is to pull the stick back (cows get smaller) which immediately means you're losing speed. On the plus side, that means you can maneuver again...but on the negative, you're flying slower which makes you a potential target against a higher-energy adversary.
Much of your commentary depends on both aircraft merging on an equal footing. However, that wouldn't typically be the case. The goal of Fighter Command was to get above the incoming Luftwaffe raids, and the Hurricane has a ceiling advantage of a couple of thousand feet over the A6M2. Thus, if positioned in sufficient time, the Hurricane could use boom-and-zoom tactics which mitigates your perceived disadvantages of acceleration in the dive ('cos they'd already be diving) and it gives the Hurricane superior energy, giving it more options...certainly not the zero options you claim.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Are the cows imperial or metric?
buffnut453
Captain
Doesn't matter...they're mad.
Shortround6
Major General
Probably because they were to Whitworth standards.
Mike Williams
Senior Airman
- 572
- Oct 19, 2006
A Bob era Hurricane is particularly dangerous to any contemporary adversary under 10,000', where it could utilize 1,310 hp with +12 boost. It would be folly to take them lightly.
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
Actually, we are comparing IJN A6M2 11s of 1940 vintage to their foreign counterparts. Not German flown or licensed, but the actual planes.
Now that is what you call an original concept - might even catch on.
buffnut453
Captain
Then we're simply comparing performance charts without any operational context? If so, why bother with the discussion? Just throw the performance data into a table and pick which is best.
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
Think of it as the Metrons beaming the top fighters of the period to an earthlike planet to determine who deserves to win the war.
They are the taller ones aren't they - the ones shorter ones are the Metrognomes ?
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
And the very small ones are millimetrons.
Shortround6
Major General
In that case all we have is the combat reports of the 12 or so A6M2s used over China in a combat test by one would assume very good pilots against not so good pilots flying mostly biplanes and Russian I-16s.
Hi
Jiro Horikoshi in 'Eagles of Mitsubishi - The Story of the Zero Fighter' page 103 has 120 Zeros, including prototypes by the end of 1940, the 'model 11' up to aircraft number 67, after that they were 'model 21s'. The majority built after the March - October time period. He also mentions that towards the end of September 1940 they gave all relevant data and help to executives and engineers from the Koizumi plant of Nakajima to produce Zeros, the first of these was rolled out in September 1941 so that 'licence' production took one year to be productive.
According to Ritchie in 'Industry and Air Power' page 234, 405 Spitfires were produced by the Southampton and Castle Bromwich works between April and December 1940, despite the Southampton Woolston works being destroyed. Also during 1940 the Gloster works alone built 1,211 Hurricanes. The few 'Zeros' that would have been available in the period concerned would have made no impact on the BoB, their lack of protection, that was found to be necessary in the comparatively large air battles of 1940 Europe, would have caused them problems as it did in later 1942 in the PTO. This was not the China operations of 13th September 1940 and the famous 13 Zeros (out of 15 available) against the Chinese fighters.
Mike
BlackSheep
Banned
- 443
- May 31, 2018
I am not suggesting the Zero would break through on it's own, merely suggesting that the same overconfidence present in 1943 may make an appearance in 1940 resulting in a deviation from normal practice and loss of lives and planes.
"The best coordinated air defense system in the world"
It was a radar and a telephone. Radar gave them current position, speed and direction they were headed so hopefully Spitfires and Hurricanes could get to the proper altitude in time. They didn't always make it. It wasn't the Death Star.
Pilots on both sides were probably close in training with a few experts and a lot of cannon fodder on both sides. Planes were equally well matched against each other with solid strengths and weaknesses on both sides.
buffnut453
Captain
Nice disparaging comments...but please explain exactly what any other country had? Oh yeah, a telephone and a Mk.I Eyeball.
And, for the record, it wasn't just a radar and a telephone. It was also a highly integrated set of command and control facilities that plotted incoming raids and marshalled the defences to intercept.
No, the fighters didn't always make it...but it was still the best system in the world.
