GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The issues of the landing gear and prop were addressed by the gull wing.
March until October of 1940: fighters' ranking
- Thread starter tomo pauk
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That is your opinion, not a fact.
Shortround6
Major General
The reduction in drag was well-known and was the reason the F2A and F4F used the mid wing design.
Trying to use a low wing and get rid of the wing root fillet was part of the Vaught thinking.
Many aircraft designers were trying to do more than one thing with each part or feature.
Trying to use a low wing and get rid of the wing root fillet was part of the Vaught thinking.
Many aircraft designers were trying to do more than one thing with each part or feature.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I was hoping Drgondog would have commented on this but here goes.
The Mustang started out as an in-house design, P.509. The P.509 was NAA Spec 1592, circa March 1940. This lead to the Mustang after the BPC went NAA to build P-40s for them.
"We got something better ".
My source on the P.509 information is THE SOURCE:
DrgonDog
In that light, I don't think the Mustang was that much of a rush job. Based on anecdotal evidence, I don't think "luck" had anything to do with it.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Mustang existed before the BPC approached North American.
This artwork is of NAA's P-509 project, rendered in 1940 - look familiar?
This image is from the P-509 thread that explains the genesis of the Mustang from NAA's drawing board to the NA-73 in good detail:
P-509
I’m following the thread asking if the P-51was the best WW2 escort. There’s a few mentions of the P-509. I’m not familiar with it and I can’t find it online. Could someone kindly post some information about it?
ww2aircraft.net
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 903
- Feb 16, 2013
I don't think the P-51 was a stroke of "luck" but a product of nearly limitless resources, access to a skilled workforce, and maybe just as important, the space required and remoteness from the conflict to tinker with the design.
Its too bad somebody didn't smack Sydney Camm over the head with the NACA laminar flow research a little sooner, perhaps the Typhoon/Tornado could have been skipped, and introduced the Tempest and Fury a year or two earlier
Its too bad somebody didn't smack Sydney Camm over the head with the NACA laminar flow research a little sooner, perhaps the Typhoon/Tornado could have been skipped, and introduced the Tempest and Fury a year or two earlier
- Thread starter
- #507
Perhaps the hard work and experience often result with a good luck?
P-38 flew well before 1941. XP-47B was materializing in the winter of 1940/41, with engine and turbocharger system unavailable anywhere else bar USA. NA-73X (Mustang prototype) 1st flew in October 1940.
Probably neither Hurricane, nor Bf 109 nor 110 were offering anything to the Americans. With Spitfire it was another story, prompting NAA to see where the weight could be shed in quest that eventually produced the 'lightweight Mustangs'.
P-47 enjoyed the performance advantage vs. German fighters above 20000 ft for perhaps the last 20 months, and Merlin Mustang some 17 months.
What Americans failed to learn from the air battles of 1940-42 over Europe was that drop tank is a critical asset on an offensive fighter.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Of course that's often the case. What hard work did the North American design team put in on the Merlin that made it so easy to adapt for the Mustang, though? I'm really at a loss why this point is being argued. It seems self-evident that someone asking "what if?" with something so complicated as an aero engine installation mod and having it work so smoothly is quite the lucky break.
This is not to say us Americans didn't do many things right; we did. It's just acknowledging that serendipity does sometimes happen.
- Thread starter
- #509
'Merlinized' P-51 from NAA gained the deeper fuselage so the Merlin does not spoil the streamlining of the fighter despite the air tunnel under the engine (we can compare the Mustang X with XP-51B to see the more elegant lines of the later; IMO, granted, the only actual shortcoming of the Mustang X was that every Mustang I the RAF had was not converted into the Mk.X). They also reworked the cooling system from the one the Allison Mustangs had: lowered the intake so it is away from the boundary layer (also introducing the boundary layer splitter), oil cooler in the separate tunnel, intercooler radiator neatly housed together with coolant radiator. Engine power went up by a great deal, the drag probably remained close to the Allison Mustangs (otherwise the engine-related drag usually went up if an intercooled engine was introduced; certainly the engine drag was up in such case with Ta 152 and Spitfire).
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
So I guess the Mustang was the best British fighterjet. 
There was a great deal of serendipity with the "birth" of the Mustang/P-51. Late enough to be able to incorporate the latest known technology in the final design but early enough to play a part in the war, but that isnt "luck". NAAs involvement with the British as a respected client and the British involvement with NAA as a responsible manufacturer played a huge part. It may be true that NAA had no "track record" with actual fighters, but they did have the T-6 Texan which the British bought and liked and was an education in mass producing such aircraft. I would also question the worth of "experience". The two companies with the most experience of making aircraft in UK made some of the biggest screw ups. Hawkers took an age to get the Typhoon sorted and Handley Page never got the Halifax to perform anything like a Lancaster.
Howard Gibson
Senior Airman
The reverse gullwing also moved the wing away from the pilot, improving his view downward a bit.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I hadn't even considered that, but it sure makes sense.
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 903
- Feb 16, 2013
Perhaps if luck was involved in the Mustang saga, it would be that the aircraft was as large as it was. That put it at a disadvantage occasionally against lighter aircraft, but it had the space to eventually carry far more fuel than originally envisioned
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I've sat in many warbirds to include a Corsair, to be honest I don't think this made a difference
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Corsair's wing (width and area) were comparable to the F6F's, but the Corsair's cockpit was set back far enough, there was nothing that was going to help a pilot's view, short of putting windows in the wing.
- Thread starter
- #517
John Vasco
Senior Airman
Go read the Vultee report...
- Thread starter
- #519
I've read it already before.
What feature of the Bf 110 was adopted on P-38, P-47 or P-51?
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Shark mouths.
