Markings of II/stG 2 JU87 August 1940?

[smithart101]

Hello All.
does anyone have a reference for the markings of this unit for the Battle of Britain please? Has to be 2nd Staffel rather than the third. Was there a shield device (a cross) on the nose?

many thanks!

 

[clinton78]

Do you mean the II./Gruppe emblem or 2./StG2 emblem meaning 1st Gruppe, 2nd Staffel?

 

[Njaco]

According to "Luftwaffe Emblems" by Barry Ketley it was a shield carryingthe red, white and blue emblem of Slovakia, commemorating the unit's formation at Vinne. Used from 1940-44 on Ju 87Bs and Ju 87Ds. My scanner is shot at the moment so I can'y supply a pic. Similar to this.

 

[clinton78]

Sorry Njaco that is the III./Gruppe emblem. The main StG2 emblem was a black 'Jesau' crusader's cross on a white shield. With the Stab Staffel using a white 'Jesau' crusader's cross on a red shield. 2./StG2 used the Scottie dog on a red disc from 42 onwards. Not sure what was used during BOB though.

 

[Njaco]

ohhhhhh, then my brand new book just published is wrong!!!!


ummmmmm....................second look and it appears my glasses need adjusting!! You and the book are correct! Small print kills me these days!

 

[clinton78]

no worries dude these things happen to the best of us. So you managed to pick up the new edition. But I must admit I am now intrigued to know what the 2./staffel emblem was during BOB. I will do some checking and post the results gentlemen.

 

[Njaco]

That it does not have. Just the Scotty dog used from 1942 onwards...

 

[clinton78]

The 3rd staffel had it's own emblem during this period proven by photos of shot down aircraft over UK so you would think the 2nd staffel would also have a specific emblem but seeing as the main published emblem resource as mentioned earlier does not show it. It appears to be a bit of a grey area. I've asked the question on LEMB and if anyone knows hopefully they will answer so I'll post back the findings here. As and when the answer turns up. It could be the case that the 2nd staffel did not have one or just used the I Gruppe emblem? Fuselage code would have been T6+?K (? in red - RLM23).

 

[vikingBerserker]

I think 2/St G2 originally used a Red Scottie on a white disc before 42.

 

[clinton78]

If we presume that the scottie dogs on a disc emblems with the discs in the same colour as the staffel were introduced across the whole of the I./Gruppe at the same time. That would mean that the 3rd Staffel Stukas were sporting it also during the BOB. Unfortunately there are photos of a 3rd Staffel Stuka shot down during the BOB sporting the earlier 3./StG2 emblem (Coat of Arms of Breslau [inherited from 3./StG163]) introduced in 1939. Why can't these things be simple.

 

[fubar57]

Don't know if you've looked at this site yet. Asisbiz history section Luftwaffe Unit Sturzkampfgeschwader 2
I've got a profile showing the Scottie dog emblem dated April '41 in Greece.(Black dog in red disc outlined in white)

Geo

 

[smithart101]

thanks for the info so far lads,

there is a photo of a stuka from this unit on this forum here
(about half way down) http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-requests/5-stg2-ju-87-b-2-a-30610.html
I cant make out any shield....

 

[clinton78]

Gentlemen, I've had a reply over on Luftwaffe Experten Message Board from Larry Hickey the Eagles Over Europe Project Coordinator. If anyone has the answer it would have been him and I was kinda hoping that he would kindly post his findings on the matter but it certainly still appears to be a bit of a grey area which is more than usually the case with these things. Below is the reply. The topic on LEMB does contain some photos from the EoE Project Database but I am unsure as to the copyright of these images so if you wish to view them may I ask that you visit the topic on LEMB but the below text does give a brief description as to what they show.

Clint,

I was astounded when Barry Ketley's new Insignia book ("Luftwaffe Emblems 1939-1945) published that the use of the Scotty Dog emblem dates to 1942. This just isn't so. I've got numerous examples of 1 Staffel a/c displaying that emblem as early as the 9.39 Polish Campaign. We know that 3 Staffel used a completely different emblem, the "arms of the city of Breslau" and that dates at least back to late 1939 and maybe as early as the Polish Campaign. Aircraft from 3./StG2 that came down during the Battle of Britain also carried that emblem at least through August of 1940. So, we definitely know that the Scotty Dog on a yellow disc probably didn't start being used until at least after the Battle of Britain (if ever--I'm not an expert after that date).

Regarding the I Gr Stab and 2 Staffel (my problem is with both of these), there are examples of 2. Staffel a/c using the black Scottie Dog on a red disc confirmed during the Balkan campaign in the spring of 1941. In fact, there is a well-known (published) color photo of the entire Staffel lined up with this insignia on the noses of all of the unit's a/c. For the "Eagles over Europe" profile project (includes 221 Ju87B and Ju87R color profiles during 1939-40), I've found fairly limited evidence for either Stab or 2 Staffel use of that insignia. However, I believe that by the end of the Polish Campaign it was very likely in use for both Stab I./StG2 (a black dog on a green disc with a white outline), and 2./StG2 (a black dog on a red disc with a white surround). If not by the end of the Polish Campaign, this insignia was almost certainly in use by the beginning of the May, 1940, Blitzkrieg in the West (WC/FC). However, there just isn't a lot of rock solid evidence during late 1939 through 1940 in the photography. But there is some, as outlined below.

Herewith is what I have assembled after a great deal of research and thought about it. There are several photos in the ECPA (French Government) Collection of Stukas in flight with clear, 2 Staffel codes but without this emblem. These clearly date to the Polish Campaign period. But this may have been early in the Campaign before the Scottie Dog emblem may have been added. The first example that I'm really certain about shows one at a French airfield after its capture (there is a surrendered French a/c in the photo). I can't tell if it's Stab I./StG2 or 2 Staffel, but it is probably the latter. The problem is that although it appears to have a red disc with a white outline, and a red front half of a prop spinner, it appears that any interior artwork inside the disc (black Scottie Dog) has been painted out.

Another example, believed during the WC/FC appears to be T6+BB or T6+BK which overturned upon landing. It clearly has a dark colored disc with a white circular edge and a black Scottie Dog inside, but I can't tell to which unit it belonged, but probably to 2 Staffel. I assess this as being by 6.40. or earlier. Unfortunately, I can't read the 4th code letter on either photo.

There is another photo, not attached, of one dismantled on railroad storage platform waiting to be removed for repair, but it is a distant shot and the a/c markings aren't clear. Another Ju87 'Stuka', tipped on its nose after a ground collision, appears to date from the WC/FC or possibly the BoB, with this same dark disk with a white outline. This appears to be T6+IK and T6+EK.

Yet another example shows what appears to be T6+GK with the same insignia but the Scotty Dog isn't very clear, although the dark disc and circle is. This appears to be a Ju87B-1 during late-1939 or during 1940, as it still has the tail-centered swastica and the very large underwing crosses typical of a/c during the last quarter of 1939 or early 1940, but prior to the late-spring of 1940.

There is a certain Stab I./StG2 or 2./StG2 Ju87B-2 model in the snow, that looks to me to be during the winter of 1940-41. This is reported to be at Rotenburg (Rothenburg??) AF near Bremen, Germany. The Scottie Dog inside the emblem is very clear on this one.

And finally, there is one WC/FC or BoB (my interpretation) photo that I think is clearly a late Ju87B-1 belonging to Stab I./StG2. This depicts T6+CB with a full green prop spinner.

I would like to note that the early use of the Scotty Dog emblem was always on very large discs, while later photos in 1941 show a smaller disc. The size of the disc helps determine what period a photo is from.

Thanks to Larry for taking the time to post his extensive findings on the matter. The Eagles over Europe project is indeed going to put a lot of these un-answered questions to bed and I eagerly anticipate it's release. Hope this helps gents, although not conclusive. If anyone can add anything to the topic it would be appreciated. It also shows that even with the new edition of Barry Ketley's Luftwaffe Emblems book care needs to be taken when using the information contained within. Still a fine book though.

 

[smithart101]

Thank you Clint and Larry. Excellent research Really looking forward to seeing the Eagles over Europe project!

 

[Njaco]

Thanks Clint! D@m, and I thought some books nowadays were throughly researched. Hmmmmm....

 

[stug3]