the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
the 262 couldn't have won it on it's own, there was nothing they could do about the advance through France and into Germany after D-Day.................
Me-262
- Thread starter Crazy
- Start date
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If the Luftwaffe had a large enough number of Schwalbes during the Normandy campaign, I think they could have stopped the Allies advance. The Germans weren't short on people, and they had plenty (greatly superior) tanks to combat the Allied tanks.
It was Allied Air Superiority that forced the Wehrmacht to move at night, and be strafed and bombed during the day. In my opinion if the Me-262 was around during D-Day (in large enough numbers) it could have stopped, or at least delayed, the Allied invasion. It would have gained air superiority easily.
It was Allied Air Superiority that forced the Wehrmacht to move at night, and be strafed and bombed during the day. In my opinion if the Me-262 was around during D-Day (in large enough numbers) it could have stopped, or at least delayed, the Allied invasion. It would have gained air superiority easily.
dead parrot
Airman 1st Class
- 108
- Jul 7, 2004
Am I right in assuming that the landings were planned and carried out on assumption of (essential) local air supremacy? If the allies did not have this because of the presence of Me262s in force, I wonder if they would have delayed the entire operation until they could defeat the Me262s, sort of like a Battle of Britain in reverse.
Erich
the old Sage
no the Allies had to move as this was a request from Stalin so the Soviets could engae in a more offensive manner, also the Allies in the south coming up the butt of Italy. so in essence this was a three-pronged move.
i do not feel the Luftwaffe even with the Schwalbe could of overtaken the supreme numbers of Allied craft on 6 of June. although this of course is a huge what if the a/c was just too short term with limited range and quirkey engine troubles. Granted if all of this had been worked out we would of heard of jet a/c hitting beyond 650 mph in the flat out, as the me 262 was suppose to have a more smooth re-streamlined fuselage and roomier cockpit.........but of course this is all unknown
i do not feel the Luftwaffe even with the Schwalbe could of overtaken the supreme numbers of Allied craft on 6 of June. although this of course is a huge what if the a/c was just too short term with limited range and quirkey engine troubles. Granted if all of this had been worked out we would of heard of jet a/c hitting beyond 650 mph in the flat out, as the me 262 was suppose to have a more smooth re-streamlined fuselage and roomier cockpit.........but of course this is all unknown
They did make over a thousand '2652s, yes, but only a few saw service because of engine troubles and a chaotic trnsport infrastructure caused by the Allies' Tactical bomber forces. To have more than a thousand '262s flying, taking into account real-world aircraft/ transport serviceability/ reliability figures, the actual production number per month for Me 262s would have been far too high for Germany's Aircraft Industry to cope with.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
you make it sound like they were all up ther at the same time, which they weren't, i think you ceem to think that the 262 was invincible, but it wasn't.....................
dead parrot
Airman 1st Class
- 108
- Jul 7, 2004
Erich said:
Yes, but Stalin also wanted them to go in 43 too, but the allies decided they weren't ready-Italy was a compromise, of sorts.
I know it is a far-fetched what if, but if the German jets could've brought a virtual end to strategic bombing in Germany, and thus freed the Luftwaffe to move back into France, and if the jets then allowed the Luftwaffe to acquire the kind of local air superiority that the allies actually enjoyed, the overlord invasion would have been a whole different proposition...
Lightning Guy
Master Sergeant
- 2,511
- Apr 29, 2004
There were only about 300 Me-262s to actually make it into service.
There was no attack on Allied shipping while in the channel on 6th June. This was due to not only local but operational air superiority. We ruled the skies.
Had the 262 been ready in large enough numbers attacks would have been happening on that invasion force. A Mustang, or any other plane for that matter, didn't have much chance to stop them diving down on the ships.
As for the four-engined bombers well JG7 (Erich-correction may be in order) if I remember claimed 427 kills in its first month 300 of them were four-engined bombers.
Had the 262 been ready in large enough numbers attacks would have been happening on that invasion force. A Mustang, or any other plane for that matter, didn't have much chance to stop them diving down on the ships.
As for the four-engined bombers well JG7 (Erich-correction may be in order) if I remember claimed 427 kills in its first month 300 of them were four-engined bombers.
Erich
the old Sage
Plan the JG 7 unit claimed over 400 kills during the whole war.
actually the Schnellboote units out of two French channel bases did attack Allied shipping an scored. I have the records from Germany..........
actually the Schnellboote units out of two French channel bases did attack Allied shipping an scored. I have the records from Germany..........
the lancaster kicks ass said:
By 'flying' I meant operational/ serviceable. And I am quite aware that the '262 was far from invincible; as I said in my previous post they woud still have needed piston-engined fighter cover during takeoff and landing, no matter how many there were.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
not just while taking off/landing, there were many fighters that could outmanouver it......................
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
and it wouldn't have been able to keep it's top speed for long...................
Lightning Guy
Master Sergeant
- 2,511
- Apr 29, 2004
And was very vulnerable on take-off and landing since the Luftwaffe couldn't even maintain air superiority over its own bases. Total Luftwaffe daylight sorties against the Normandy beach head: 2 Fw-190s. The 262s would have had trouble over the beach as well due to the number of Allied fighters in the proximity as well as the AA guns on the ships.
Over 100 Me-262s fell to P-51s and P-47s. The '262' would have been able to gain air superiority with ease, when JG7 gets 427 kills from late 1944 to VE day.
The Allied pilots had to work out tactics to destroy the Schwalbes, diving down on them when the '262' was climbing to match their speed, and such. Taking on a 262 wasn't an easy task.
The Allied pilots had to work out tactics to destroy the Schwalbes, diving down on them when the '262' was climbing to match their speed, and such. Taking on a 262 wasn't an easy task.
Lightning Guy
Master Sergeant
- 2,511
- Apr 29, 2004
But most of those kills weren't over fighters. The Allies had a huge numerical advantage over the 262 that couldn't be overcome.
427 from one Geschwader, 300 were four-engined bombers. You've still got around 100 being fighters. And just over 100 '262s' were claimed by P-51s and P-47s over all. Then you've got the other Jv44, Kommando Welter and Kommando Nowotny kills. Maybe Erich could help us with that.
Erich
the old Sage
JV 44 is unoffcially given credit for at least 45 Allied a/c which I do not believe, and the reason from my perspective is that the unit was on the constant move and stationed in southern Germany/Austria for a time being where there was not much bomber activity except for 9th AF B-26's, P-47's on occassion. there was talk of the unit being absorbed into JG 7 for it's IV. gruppe and on paper it was.
10./NJG 11 aka Kommando Welter..............well let's just say it is a surprise which will be dealt with at some length on certain ops in our book.
Ekdo 262 the first jet fighter unit had approx. 21 kills
Kommando Nowotny roughly 33 kills
III./EJG 2 had around 20 or so kills.
I./KG(J) 54 around 30 kills
E ~
10./NJG 11 aka Kommando Welter..............well let's just say it is a surprise which will be dealt with at some length on certain ops in our book.
Ekdo 262 the first jet fighter unit had approx. 21 kills
Kommando Nowotny roughly 33 kills
III./EJG 2 had around 20 or so kills.
I./KG(J) 54 around 30 kills
E ~
