kiwimac
Staff Sergeant
Had the RLM gone with the HE 280 which was available pre-1942 which was, even then, more manouverable that a FW-190, the results could have been very different.
Kiwimac
Kiwimac
Me-262
- Thread starter Crazy
- Start date
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Erich
the old Sage
somethings we will never know. How about that late war experiment, Gotha flying wing. Funny what has been taken over by the Allies and now some 55 years into the future we are seeing the fruits of the German techs labor. Stealth equipment
Lightning Guy
Master Sergeant
- 2,511
- Apr 29, 2004
The Gotha Go 229 would have been a match for just about anything flying, planned, or even thought of.
I have heard that Germany actually at one point cancelled everything that couldn't be made available in something like 2 years because they expected to have one the war. Any truth to that?
I have heard that Germany actually at one point cancelled everything that couldn't be made available in something like 2 years because they expected to have one the war. Any truth to that?
Erich
the old Sage
not sure but the drawing boards had some 25 different desgins some having gone through wooden mock-ups. had the war last another year or 2 we would have some pics of some wild looking swept-back winged a/c, provided the fuels and airfields would have been available
Straight after the war their technology came into practice; the Ta183 with an extended fuselage and lowered tail plane, with a British Rolls Royce Nene engine became the Mig-15.
The F-86 being very similar only it had lighter armament and a Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire (Another British) engine in it.
The British had the Canberra (Bomber) flying in 1947 so they must have had some pretty good planes on the drawing board by late war.
The F-86 being very similar only it had lighter armament and a Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire (Another British) engine in it.
The British had the Canberra (Bomber) flying in 1947 so they must have had some pretty good planes on the drawing board by late war.
cheddar cheese
Major General
heres one. would the go-229 have been a match for the E.E lightning?
I don't know the full capabilities of the Go-229 but I'm still going to say the EE Lightning would be untouchable since nothing could match its rate of climb or speed for that matter until the designs in the 70s of which the aircraft came into service in the 80s.
The F.6 Lightning Mach 2.3 at 40,000ft. 2 minutes 30 seconds to 40,000ft and Mach 0.9 (Operational speed and height); Ceiling 60,000ft. Two 30mm Aden cannons, and two Firestreak missiles which had a speed of at least Mach 2 at 40,000ft, warhead of 50lbs and range of 4 miles (low range, I know but this is the 40s).
The Lightning could out run most missiles of that time, nothing could match it.
Now, get back on with the World War 2 discussion.
The F.6 Lightning Mach 2.3 at 40,000ft. 2 minutes 30 seconds to 40,000ft and Mach 0.9 (Operational speed and height); Ceiling 60,000ft. Two 30mm Aden cannons, and two Firestreak missiles which had a speed of at least Mach 2 at 40,000ft, warhead of 50lbs and range of 4 miles (low range, I know but this is the 40s).
The Lightning could out run most missiles of that time, nothing could match it.
Now, get back on with the World War 2 discussion.
Erich
the old Sage
to get back on the topic of the Me 262. JG 7 is recorded to have scored some 425 victories in it's short career. A fantastic record if actually true. although a major work by author Manfred Boehme was written there are still many unknowns about the missions flown by the Geschwader. I. and III. gruppes were equipped with the Me 262A-1a and the II. gruppe was never really in action but was in effect a paper unit used for a moral booster and propaganada tool against Allied forces. In fact some resources have reported that II.. gruppe was the high cover unit protecting the jets of the other two guppen upon landing and taking off and equipped with the Bf 109G. this is quite incorrect as this the major German jet unit only had field 2cm flak to protect the machines from US P-51's.
so distressed was the Reich higher-archy during the fall and winter of 44-45 that Kurt Welter was tasked with starting a small Kommando of Me 262A-1a's for night fighter duty against the ever high flying Mossie bombers of the LSNF. The Bf 109's had only been partially sucessful and were not able to turn the Mosquito bombers from their nuisance raids upon Berlin. the Me 262 was to help but although victories were scored, again the willfulness of the LSNF endured and continued the raids till April of 45. 8)
so distressed was the Reich higher-archy during the fall and winter of 44-45 that Kurt Welter was tasked with starting a small Kommando of Me 262A-1a's for night fighter duty against the ever high flying Mossie bombers of the LSNF. The Bf 109's had only been partially sucessful and were not able to turn the Mosquito bombers from their nuisance raids upon Berlin. the Me 262 was to help but although victories were scored, again the willfulness of the LSNF endured and continued the raids till April of 45. 8)
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
the Go-299 would have been an amazing plane, but it would have come to late, what's the point in having a great plane like that if you can bearly fuel it, you also have to remeber the gemmans had many ideas that would have made things akward, but they would all be to late............
The Me-262A-1a certainly had an impressive record; Kommando Nowotny claimed 22 kills in its first month of service. III/JG 7 claims 427 aircraft of which some 300 were 4-engined bombers.
Some were armed with 24 R4/M air-to-air spin-stabilised rockets which led to the post-war Mighty Mouse FFAR folding-fin aircraft rocket.
Erich, I haven't read much on the combat record of the Me-262A-2a 'Sturmvogel'...did it do any good?
Some were armed with 24 R4/M air-to-air spin-stabilised rockets which led to the post-war Mighty Mouse FFAR folding-fin aircraft rocket.
Erich, I haven't read much on the combat record of the Me-262A-2a 'Sturmvogel'...did it do any good?
Erich
the old Sage
friend the JG 7 unit as a whole claimed upwards 400 kills plus, not just III. gruppe alone. though it has been very hard to get the concisive reports as to how many Allied a/c they did indeed take down.
The A-2 was junk and this is one of the reasons KG 51 and 54 went over to the fighter designation (J) for Jäger. although still performing ground attacks against the Soviets in March/April of 45 till they surrendered....
The A-2 was junk and this is one of the reasons KG 51 and 54 went over to the fighter designation (J) for Jäger. although still performing ground attacks against the Soviets in March/April of 45 till they surrendered....
I apologise for the mistake.
This may be asking a bit much but can you explain the full titles and the type of sqaudron under all the letters in the Luftwaffe?
I heard that the delay in production wasn't because of Hitlers request to arm them with bombs but was because of engine delays. Is that true? Since before I read that is was all 'Hitler delayed everything'...
This may be asking a bit much but can you explain the full titles and the type of sqaudron under all the letters in the Luftwaffe?
I heard that the delay in production wasn't because of Hitlers request to arm them with bombs but was because of engine delays. Is that true? Since before I read that is was all 'Hitler delayed everything'...
Erich
the old Sage
Hitlers intent was to have a Schnellbomber since he was still stuck on this idea. bombers, bombers, bombers, that will surely win us the war although he sure must have been somewhere else and not with reality come winter of 44/45, with his scheme of capturing Antwerp and throwing the Allies into the sea, etc.............
fuels, engines and the spare parts was surely of prime concern. I still think there was some serious doubt that JG 7 and previous Kommando Nowotny could do anything with the swallow, even with verbal high hopes and best wishes.
sure what are you interested in as to numbers and vocabulary ?
squadron=staffel
group=gruppe although we must bear in mind that a US fighter group was the whole combined unit and a Gruppe for the Luftwaffe was made up first of 3 staffeln and then in mid-August onward of 4 staffeln except for the night fighters which remained at 3.
Geschwader was the complete unit of 3-4 gruppen. Each staffel had between 10 and 15 a/c generally. So by looking at this we can hopefully determine that there were 40-60 aircraft in the Geschwader(wing) plus the gruppen stab of 6-8 a/c.
Each staffel had a number and this number was colored to indicated the staffel. The staff had a seperate colored number..........yeah I know this is confusing.....
example for II./JG 301 flying the Fw 190A-9 in the late fall of 44.
II. gruppe stab(staff) either black or green ?
5th staffel -white
6th staffel -red
7th staffel -yellow
8th staffel - blue
does this help ?
fuels, engines and the spare parts was surely of prime concern. I still think there was some serious doubt that JG 7 and previous Kommando Nowotny could do anything with the swallow, even with verbal high hopes and best wishes.
sure what are you interested in as to numbers and vocabulary ?
squadron=staffel
group=gruppe although we must bear in mind that a US fighter group was the whole combined unit and a Gruppe for the Luftwaffe was made up first of 3 staffeln and then in mid-August onward of 4 staffeln except for the night fighters which remained at 3.
Geschwader was the complete unit of 3-4 gruppen. Each staffel had between 10 and 15 a/c generally. So by looking at this we can hopefully determine that there were 40-60 aircraft in the Geschwader(wing) plus the gruppen stab of 6-8 a/c.
Each staffel had a number and this number was colored to indicated the staffel. The staff had a seperate colored number..........yeah I know this is confusing.....
example for II./JG 301 flying the Fw 190A-9 in the late fall of 44.
II. gruppe stab(staff) either black or green ?
5th staffel -white
6th staffel -red
7th staffel -yellow
8th staffel - blue
does this help ?
That helped a lot. However I'm a little confused as to the order in which the Gruppe, Staffel and Geschwader were in. Was it; One Geschwader had 3-4 Gruppe and one Gruppe and 3-4 Staffel?
I'm also interested in the names and types of units abbrieviations like the letters for the type of aircraft flown like Nightfighter Squadrons, or Ground attack for example.
Also what were the Kommando squadrons..elite units?
This is asking a lot but I'll hope you'll help. Thank you in advance.
I'm also interested in the names and types of units abbrieviations like the letters for the type of aircraft flown like Nightfighter Squadrons, or Ground attack for example.
Also what were the Kommando squadrons..elite units?
This is asking a lot but I'll hope you'll help. Thank you in advance.
Erich
the old Sage
You are correct with the gruppe in the Geschwader.
4 staffels in 1 gruppe. 3-4 gruppe in a Geschwader.
I am quite weak when it comes to the ground attacks numerations, but besides numbers, a Captial letter was often used to denote a particular a/c.
for the Night fighters here ya go !
single engine were numbered like the day fighters 109's and 190's
twin engine were lettered as thus.
Geschwader stab A
I. gruppe B
II. gruppe C
III. gruppe D
IV. gruppe E
V. gruppe F
1st staffel H
2nd staffel K
3rd staffel L
4th staffel M
5th staffel N
6th staffel P
7th staffel R
8th staffel S
9th staffel T
10th staffel U
11th staffel V
12th staffel W
13th staffel X
14th staffel Y
15th staffel Z
sometimes there was an un-offical 16th staffel that was used as a training or nachtjagd schule
E ~
4 staffels in 1 gruppe. 3-4 gruppe in a Geschwader.
I am quite weak when it comes to the ground attacks numerations, but besides numbers, a Captial letter was often used to denote a particular a/c.
for the Night fighters here ya go !
single engine were numbered like the day fighters 109's and 190's
twin engine were lettered as thus.
Geschwader stab A
I. gruppe B
II. gruppe C
III. gruppe D
IV. gruppe E
V. gruppe F
1st staffel H
2nd staffel K
3rd staffel L
4th staffel M
5th staffel N
6th staffel P
7th staffel R
8th staffel S
9th staffel T
10th staffel U
11th staffel V
12th staffel W
13th staffel X
14th staffel Y
15th staffel Z
sometimes there was an un-offical 16th staffel that was used as a training or nachtjagd schule
E ~
Erich
the old Sage
must be getting late in my head..........
also the 16th staffel could be a replacement unit for personell.
Kommando's were generally a start up or test unit(s) example is Kommando Nowotny. although he was the Kommandeur and the squadron was actually bigger than a staffel with some 20 a/c or so it was not a permanent geschwader with a high grade of ground personell needed to make the unit mobil and totally self sufficient. Kommando Welter was the same testing the Me 262 for night missions. Successful as it was at first Welter was then tasked to search for other night marksman from exisiting single and twin engine night fighters as well as night fighter instructors. The dessignation 10th staffel was used but also II. gruppe for propaganda reasons though there already existed a II./NJG 11 equipped with the Bf 109G-14/AS and G-10's in January of 45 till war's end. The 10th staffel was generally in theiry a seperate unit from it's mother Geschwader but not all the time. Day fighter staffel 10./JG 11 equipped with the Bf 109 G and Fw 190A was seperate from the JG 11 for a good portion of its existance..........
10.(N)/JG 300 which forms the first part of our book was a seperate anti-Mosquito unit to fly at night with the Bf 109G-6/AS in the summer and fall of 1944. The rest of the staffeln in III./JG 300 flew day time missions. the 10th staffel in this case did serve on the same base as III. gruppe staffels at Jüterbog
also the 16th staffel could be a replacement unit for personell.
Kommando's were generally a start up or test unit(s) example is Kommando Nowotny. although he was the Kommandeur and the squadron was actually bigger than a staffel with some 20 a/c or so it was not a permanent geschwader with a high grade of ground personell needed to make the unit mobil and totally self sufficient. Kommando Welter was the same testing the Me 262 for night missions. Successful as it was at first Welter was then tasked to search for other night marksman from exisiting single and twin engine night fighters as well as night fighter instructors. The dessignation 10th staffel was used but also II. gruppe for propaganda reasons though there already existed a II./NJG 11 equipped with the Bf 109G-14/AS and G-10's in January of 45 till war's end. The 10th staffel was generally in theiry a seperate unit from it's mother Geschwader but not all the time. Day fighter staffel 10./JG 11 equipped with the Bf 109 G and Fw 190A was seperate from the JG 11 for a good portion of its existance..........
10.(N)/JG 300 which forms the first part of our book was a seperate anti-Mosquito unit to fly at night with the Bf 109G-6/AS in the summer and fall of 1944. The rest of the staffeln in III./JG 300 flew day time missions. the 10th staffel in this case did serve on the same base as III. gruppe staffels at Jüterbog
That is all great, thank you. I'm probably getting annoying now but there is one final thing...Example: III/JG 7. Does that mean Drei Gruppe/Jager-Geschwader sieben? Or in my terms 3rd Group of Fighter Wing 7. And am I right to assume that NJG is Nacht Jager Geschwader? Also off writing is there anyway of knowing what the Staffel is? There really should be a book with the explanation in... 
All this rush is sort of confusing me, but I think, or at least hope I'm getting it right. Thank you in advance, and I apologise if I am being annoying.
Danke Schon.
All this rush is sort of confusing me, but I think, or at least hope I'm getting it right. Thank you in advance, and I apologise if I am being annoying.
Danke Schon.
Erich
the old Sage
3rd Gruppe, Jagdgeschwader 7 III./JG 7
NJG = Nachtjagdgeschwader
gruppes are marked in Roman numerals........ I, II, III, IV, V, VI
staffels are identified with numerals............ 1,2,3,4, 5,6,7,8 9,10,11,12, etc..........
staffeln were marked with different colours and I have a listing of the jagdgeschwader colours if interested..... ?
NJG = Nachtjagdgeschwader
gruppes are marked in Roman numerals........ I, II, III, IV, V, VI
staffels are identified with numerals............ 1,2,3,4, 5,6,7,8 9,10,11,12, etc..........
staffeln were marked with different colours and I have a listing of the jagdgeschwader colours if interested..... ?
Is it the same organisation for Ground Attack, Bomber, Fighter and Nightfighter wings, or any other kind of wing for that matter?
And just finally to clarify: 3rd Staffel ~ 4th Gruppe ~ 7th Jagdgeshwader would be; 3.IV/JG 7?
If that's wrong, I bet you're getting really annoyed now. You should have seen me when I was trying to understand the divisional organisation of Soviet Armour and German Panzer divisions...
And just finally to clarify: 3rd Staffel ~ 4th Gruppe ~ 7th Jagdgeshwader would be; 3.IV/JG 7?
If that's wrong, I bet you're getting really annoyed now. You should have seen me when I was trying to understand the divisional organisation of Soviet Armour and German Panzer divisions...
