Me-309: let's give Willy another chance

tomo pauk · Dec 13, 2011

Neat photoshop job, Njaco
It've mixed a front of 109F with rest of 190A posted it here before.

Hi, Juha,
I was thinking of a new design, not something based on the Finnish fighter, sorry for misunderstanding

The plane would be basically a Ta-152C front (minus the cowl cannon), rest of the hull from the F4U with terdrop canopy (Goodyear-built prototype), wings from P-51 (but for space allocated for root cannon ammo, other cannon fires out from prop disc).

davebender · Dec 13, 2011

Better ground handling. Not necessary but nice to have if it doesn't add a lot to production cost.

Gixxerman · Dec 13, 2011

Some fantastic pics guys.

The small wing of the 309 always had me wondering.
Given that the allies were fielding planes with 2 and then 3 x .50 machine guns a wing in the case of the Mustang, 4 x .50 machine guns in the case of the Thunderbolt or 2 x 20mm cannon (and often plus machione guns) in the case of the British fighters it just seems a bit odd that the German aero-industry (under guidelines imposed by the RLM?) went for small wings and less wing armament after the high-point of the Focke Wulf 190 Ta 152 planes.

davebender · Dec 13, 2011

Nothing odd about it.

How many wing mounted cannon do you see on modern day combat airccraft? WWII Germany was among the first to determine that fuselage mounted cannon are inherently more accurate. The disadvantage is finding fuselage space to mount enough firepower. That was solved by developing the Mk108 hub cannon and MG213 revolver cannon.

tomo pauk · Dec 13, 2011

I've seen a drawing depicting a Me-309 with 1 cannon + one HMG in both wing roots, 2 cowl HMGs and engine cannon - 7 guns total. The real 'next gen' plane got 4 x 30mm, quite a battery.

Juha · Dec 13, 2011

tomo pauk said:
...Hi, Juha,
I was thinking of a new design, not something based on the Finnish fighter, sorry for misunderstanding ...

Hello. I understood your point, I wanted only point out that also Finns wanted to make many of the improvements you mentioned, better view, better t/o and landing characters, wider u/c, more fuselage volume and bigger wing. But Finns accepted only marginally more powerful armament with DB605A, IMHO with DB603A it would have been possible to install heavier armament.

Juha

Gixxerman · Dec 13, 2011

davebender said:
Nothing odd about it.

How many wing mounted cannon do you see on modern day combat airccraft?

Yes but that is largely a case of today's much faster firing (and reliable) guns?
Something like a Vulcan cannon is light-years ahead of its WW2 counterpart and so doesn't need a multiple installation, surely?

1950's British French military aircraft routinely had 4 x 20mm cannon (and those DEFA ADEN cannons are direct developments of the revolver Mauser).

davebender said:
WWII Germany was among the first to determine that fuselage mounted cannon are inherently more accurate.

That's as maybe but I do recall reading about the Me 109F coming in for heavy criticism for its 'light' armament.....when surely the inherent accuracy (even for novice pilots) ought to have been the dominant point?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing, just putting what I recall reading.

tomo pauk said:
I've seen a drawing depicting a Me-309 with 1 cannon + one HMG in both wing roots, 2 cowl HMGs and engine cannon - 7 guns total. The real 'next gen' plane got 4 x 30mm, quite a battery.

Interesting tomo, I hadn't seen that on an Me309.

......and obviously I accept that the next gen Me 262's 4 x 30mms (and R4M packs) make my original point a little redundant.

tomo pauk · Dec 13, 2011

The 109F-4 and subsequent 109s were featuring gondola cannons as possibility, so that seem like admiting the original wepon pack (cannon + 2 LMGs) lacked punch.

Here is how that 7-gunner should've looked like:

Gixxerman · Dec 13, 2011

Thanks tomo, interesting stuff, as usual.

johnbr · Dec 13, 2011

I readed that Me 309 tested the Mauser Mk 412.

Gixxerman · Dec 13, 2011

The 50mm gun johnbr?

That must have packed some mighty day-ruining wallop.

bobbysocks · Dec 13, 2011

Njaco said:
this?......

i like that!! but what do you call it? a Focke-Schmitt or a Messer-Wulf? i also like that VL Pyörremyrsky! some nice looking planes.

shouldnt the newer designs incorporate a swept wing design??? you will talking higher speeds and that will mean better chance at hitting compressibility. swept wings will give you more control and the edge in a very high speed dogfight or evasion.

tomo pauk · Dec 13, 2011

Yep, Bobby, something like a Me-262 without jets, as big engine as it gets in nose, as much cannons fuel as deasible?

Denniss · Dec 13, 2011

No Bf 109 F-4 had the option for gondola cannons, it was introduced with the F-4/R1 of which 240 were built by WNF.

Njaco · Dec 13, 2011

bobbysocks said:
i like that!! but what do you call it? a Focke-Schmitt or a Messer-Wulf? i also like that VL Pyörremyrsky! some nice looking planes.

shouldnt the newer designs incorporate a swept wing design??? you will talking higher speeds and that will mean better chance at hitting compressibility. swept wings will give you more control and the edge in a very high speed dogfight or evasion.

A Focke-n-Mess.

bobbysocks · Dec 13, 2011

Njaco said:
A Focke-n-Mess.

now THAT'S FUNNY!!!

what was the best engine of the time? not only in HP but torque... you build to make the best use of that! let the engine do what it is supposed to...then add the swept wings, areodymanic fuse...etc.

tomo pauk · Dec 13, 2011

Denniss said:
No Bf 109 F-4 had the option for gondola cannons, it was introduced with the F-4/R1 of which 240 were built by WNF.

Sorry for not being so precize

michaelmaltby · Dec 13, 2011

Interesting how the Me-309 contrasts with this ....

Shortround6 · Dec 13, 2011

davebender said:
Nothing odd about it.

How many wing mounted cannon do you see on modern day combat airccraft?

Modern day combat aircraft (jets) don't have to worry about shooting through propellers. On modern day combat aircraft the cannon are NOT the primary air to air armament or even the primary air to ground armament.

davebender said:
WWII Germany was among the first to determine that fuselage mounted cannon are inherently more accurate.

That is correct, AMONG the first......except that it was in the mid 30s.

davebender said:
The disadvantage is finding fuselage space to mount enough firepower. That was solved by developing the Mk108 hub cannon and MG213 revolver cannon.

Only partially solved by the MK108, a single low velocity, medium rate of fire gun has too low a hit probability to be a true solution for fighter vs fighter combat. MG213 was a good start but just a little late ( like several years)

davebender · Dec 14, 2011

Not light years.

Specifications for the MG213 revolver cannon were written during 1942. A few prototypes were available during April 1945. If the war had lasted another 6 months it probably would have been operational on Luftwaffe fighter aircraft.

Meanwhile the older MG151/20 cannon was such a good design it remained in operational service into the 1990s.

Me-309: let's give Willy another chance

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