Capt. Vick
- Franks may have nailed it this time, thus it maybe all good... Just saying some of his previous efforte have been ...frustrating... for those of us who are really passionate about the subjects he chose!D
Me163 book advisable?
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Capt. Vick
- Franks may have nailed it this time, thus it maybe all good... Just saying some of his previous efforte have been ...frustrating... for those of us who are really passionate about the subjects he chose!D
Well...will let you know in a week or probably two...organised one from Hannants as a sort of protective "board" for some decals I ordered....
D
Thanks for the reply. Was looking over his 163 book and was still a bit confused as to what may be wrong...
Anyway, I had the same positive reaction to the He 219 book in this series. Can you tell me what I should be looking out for as far as errors with that one?
That could take a while - I can get around to it when I finish some stuff here (writing up this research paper, Wayne's decals, fixing a wall, etc), but if the He 219 is you thing, you need this --> The Heinkel He 219 – A Research Paper – Wing Leader
Goes through all major He 219 publications and corrects them - the Franks book is not in here, as it was published around the same time, so Ron didn't get a chance to pull that one to pieces either - but Ron's work is awesome (and in part inspired my project)
D
Goes through all major He 219 publications and corrects them - the Franks book is not in here, as it was published around the same time, so Ron didn't get a chance to pull that one to pieces either - but Ron's work is awesome (and in part inspired my project)
D
Yes, I have his Version 3 research paper. Shame about his son.
Very much so - While I haven't spoken to Ron for a good few months now, he is a VERY nice guy, and really didn't deserve that (and I will leave it at that). It's also a shame that his other He 219 book never materialised; other member of the Luftwaffe research community basically took and took and took, yet never shared with Ron - that and some issues with goal-posts being moved on him, seemed to kill the project (we did write a short paper together for NASM though - Ron is very sure and I am pretty sure that 290202 is actually 290060; but NASM is happy with 202 and doesn't want to listen, nor check the really dodgy ID plate).
As for my project, I need a few good months of hard work - and to touch base with Ron to proof it all too...
Dan
As for my project, I need a few good months of hard work - and to touch base with Ron to proof it all too...
Dan
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I don't know what your project is sir, but I wish you luck!
Crimea_River
Marshal
Interesting discussion here. I'm always impressed how guys like Ron have access to whatever resources it is that allows them to publish such thorough works. So, Dan, what's the secret? Is there some great store of data somewhere that enables you to dig into the background of the NASM He219 to back up the idea that it is 290060? I'd love to do stuff like this myself (as I will have more time on my hands pretty soon) but have no clue where people get info like this.
Ron's just done the hard work for years...
But the NASM 219A, happy to discuss... Although this is ALL from memory as I have NONE of my data with me
We know 3x He 219 made it to the US, 210903, 290060 and 290202 - all Rostock A-2's; we also know they were partially disassembled for the trip. NASM contents (with good reason) they have 290202, but there are problems with this:
- NASM claims they found the numbers '202' on the engine nacelles - 202 is the Baugruppe nummer for that part of an A-2. NASM also found other numbers like '264' (another Baugruppe nummer) and etc also though!
- NASM claims the majority of the a/c was painted with a Black Undersurface - no pictures of the a/c show black under surfaces at the time of capture; of all known a/c with black under surfaces, they exist in the range 290054 to 290129. No period photos exist of an a/c outside this range with a black under surface (though more and more show up with a Black wing, such as one of the captured machines).
At this point it must be stated that as they removed paint, they found 290060 on the tails - but the tails were in the Grey on Grey scheme (not the Grey on Black scheme) - but as NASM says, they have an a/c with black under surfaces, despite photos from the time showing no US-captured a/c with black under surfaces, it is probable that the a/c was repaired and repainted (we see this in the case of 290059) - there is plenty of evidence of a/c that have been repaired and sent back into service (evidenced by things like old werknummern not being removed from tails, or werknummern being painted on by hand onto replacement tails, etc)
- NASM contends the tails 'must have been swapped' - which is valid and possible, as the verticals were removed from all 3 a/c, but in this case, the matching pair of tails made it back to this a/c, but short of engines, nothing else appears to have been swapped.
- NASM contends that the ID plate is definitive proof of the a/c ID - problem is, no one has ever seen a ID plate on a Luftwaffe type that looks like this ID plate. The plate carries the WNr 290202 - the problem is that i) in every other known case the plates are rivetted (NASM's a/c is screwed on), ii) the embossing is unlike any other plate ever found, and iii) the plate has no Hersteller-code (manufacturer code) at all... It should have 'ehr' on it.
The rivetting was for a reason - so the plate STAYED WITH THE A/C and COULDN'T BE SWAPPED!
Now the fact that the German's (particularly in the field and even at the main repair facility at Cheb) often didn't have the time to change WNr on tails they'd swapped to other a/c (and the tail was an oft swapped part), it would hard to believe they would change out an ID plate... Not to mention, what would the reason be to change out the ID plate?
Far more likely is that the ID plate was 'souvenired' in the late 1940's, then sometime later, a 'replica' was knocked out, and re-attached, using what appear to be US pattern Phillips heads.
The ID plate is really suspect, and all experts who have seen images agree its likely not genuine - NASM now wont pull the plate to check the screws or back of the plate (the plate is mysteriously rusted too, unlike most recovered plates). The Luftwaffe only had metric fittings in inventory - so if the screws come out and are SAE, as used by the USAAF and USAF, one could reasonably content the plate is dodgy.
Now is NASM is right, they have happened upon:
- the ONLY KNOWN Black-Grey He 219 outside the known range;
- the ONLY known instance of a Heinkel ID plate with no hersteller code;
- the ONLY known Luftwaffe ID plate screwed on and not Rivetted!
That's pretty unlikely - especially those last two! The Germans were pretty anal about that stuff.
Hence I am pretty sure the NASM a/c is 290060, which left the factory in the Grey on Black scheme, was damaged (likely the tails and belly) - got new tails and new paint job (and I suspect the RH wing was left Black, as was the trend) and returned to service in the Grey on Grey scheme.
Little else makes logical sense.
But the NASM 219A, happy to discuss... Although this is ALL from memory as I have NONE of my data with me
We know 3x He 219 made it to the US, 210903, 290060 and 290202 - all Rostock A-2's; we also know they were partially disassembled for the trip. NASM contents (with good reason) they have 290202, but there are problems with this:
- NASM claims they found the numbers '202' on the engine nacelles - 202 is the Baugruppe nummer for that part of an A-2. NASM also found other numbers like '264' (another Baugruppe nummer) and etc also though!
- NASM claims the majority of the a/c was painted with a Black Undersurface - no pictures of the a/c show black under surfaces at the time of capture; of all known a/c with black under surfaces, they exist in the range 290054 to 290129. No period photos exist of an a/c outside this range with a black under surface (though more and more show up with a Black wing, such as one of the captured machines).
At this point it must be stated that as they removed paint, they found 290060 on the tails - but the tails were in the Grey on Grey scheme (not the Grey on Black scheme) - but as NASM says, they have an a/c with black under surfaces, despite photos from the time showing no US-captured a/c with black under surfaces, it is probable that the a/c was repaired and repainted (we see this in the case of 290059) - there is plenty of evidence of a/c that have been repaired and sent back into service (evidenced by things like old werknummern not being removed from tails, or werknummern being painted on by hand onto replacement tails, etc)
- NASM contends the tails 'must have been swapped' - which is valid and possible, as the verticals were removed from all 3 a/c, but in this case, the matching pair of tails made it back to this a/c, but short of engines, nothing else appears to have been swapped.
- NASM contends that the ID plate is definitive proof of the a/c ID - problem is, no one has ever seen a ID plate on a Luftwaffe type that looks like this ID plate. The plate carries the WNr 290202 - the problem is that i) in every other known case the plates are rivetted (NASM's a/c is screwed on), ii) the embossing is unlike any other plate ever found, and iii) the plate has no Hersteller-code (manufacturer code) at all... It should have 'ehr' on it.
The rivetting was for a reason - so the plate STAYED WITH THE A/C and COULDN'T BE SWAPPED!
Now the fact that the German's (particularly in the field and even at the main repair facility at Cheb) often didn't have the time to change WNr on tails they'd swapped to other a/c (and the tail was an oft swapped part), it would hard to believe they would change out an ID plate... Not to mention, what would the reason be to change out the ID plate?
Far more likely is that the ID plate was 'souvenired' in the late 1940's, then sometime later, a 'replica' was knocked out, and re-attached, using what appear to be US pattern Phillips heads.
The ID plate is really suspect, and all experts who have seen images agree its likely not genuine - NASM now wont pull the plate to check the screws or back of the plate (the plate is mysteriously rusted too, unlike most recovered plates). The Luftwaffe only had metric fittings in inventory - so if the screws come out and are SAE, as used by the USAAF and USAF, one could reasonably content the plate is dodgy.
Now is NASM is right, they have happened upon:
- the ONLY KNOWN Black-Grey He 219 outside the known range;
- the ONLY known instance of a Heinkel ID plate with no hersteller code;
- the ONLY known Luftwaffe ID plate screwed on and not Rivetted!
That's pretty unlikely - especially those last two! The Germans were pretty anal about that stuff.
Hence I am pretty sure the NASM a/c is 290060, which left the factory in the Grey on Black scheme, was damaged (likely the tails and belly) - got new tails and new paint job (and I suspect the RH wing was left Black, as was the trend) and returned to service in the Grey on Grey scheme.
Little else makes logical sense.
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Crimea_River
Marshal
Thanks Dan. Pretty good for memory! I'm just going to copy and paste all the stuff that I'd love to know how the info is derived:
202 is the Baugruppe nummer for that part of an A-2
they exist in the range 290054 to 290129
a/c was repaired and repainted (we see this in the case of 290059)
but in this case, the matching pair of tails made it back to this a/c,
in every other known case the plates are rivetted
the tail was an oft swapped part
Not at all questioning your conclusions, just would love to know where stuff like this comes from!
202 is the Baugruppe nummer for that part of an A-2
they exist in the range 290054 to 290129
a/c was repaired and repainted (we see this in the case of 290059)
but in this case, the matching pair of tails made it back to this a/c,
in every other known case the plates are rivetted
the tail was an oft swapped part
Not at all questioning your conclusions, just would love to know where stuff like this comes from!
Baugruppen are known for A-0, A-2 and A-7 variants from Heikell records (no D-1 Baugruppen listing is known, but they would be mostly A-7 sections, with Jumo engines and an MW-50 tank in place of the Schräge-Muzik - no photos are known of any completed a/c, tho WNr were assigned), so the Bsugruppen are fairly well known.
The range of numbers of black painted a/c is derived the the lowest and highest WNr in the production blocks - 054 is the first a/c of 25 a/c block and 129 is the last of a 20 a/c block (numbers between we're not used) - both blocks obviously came from Rostock (ehr). All black painted a/c fall into this range without exception ... Except our NASM 202.
059 from memory shows up as having suffered 50% damage in records. It's photographed at the end of the war in the Grey on Grey, but wearing a Wellenmuster pattern indicative of a much later build, suggesting the repaint.
In every other case the plates were riveted - there are numerous Lw a/c preserved, restored or their wreck have been uncovered - especially in the last case, the plate links the wreckage to an identity, so a wreck could be identified... 70 years later these plates are still identifying wrecks - so we know what the should look like.
Tails bring oft swapped can be observed on pictures of a/c at Cheb ( the repair facility) and Münster at wars end. Tails with hand painted WNrs, WNrs of A-0's that had been written off reappearing attached to A-2 fuselages. At Sylt there was a collection of salvaged tail sections, ready to be recycled into the fleet - in fact some of the Sylt tails suggest they'd started life as a replacement sourced from the factory, attached to an a/c, removed and set aside for reuse.
Good old German efficiency and recycling...
D
The range of numbers of black painted a/c is derived the the lowest and highest WNr in the production blocks - 054 is the first a/c of 25 a/c block and 129 is the last of a 20 a/c block (numbers between we're not used) - both blocks obviously came from Rostock (ehr). All black painted a/c fall into this range without exception ... Except our NASM 202.
059 from memory shows up as having suffered 50% damage in records. It's photographed at the end of the war in the Grey on Grey, but wearing a Wellenmuster pattern indicative of a much later build, suggesting the repaint.
In every other case the plates were riveted - there are numerous Lw a/c preserved, restored or their wreck have been uncovered - especially in the last case, the plate links the wreckage to an identity, so a wreck could be identified... 70 years later these plates are still identifying wrecks - so we know what the should look like.
Tails bring oft swapped can be observed on pictures of a/c at Cheb ( the repair facility) and Münster at wars end. Tails with hand painted WNrs, WNrs of A-0's that had been written off reappearing attached to A-2 fuselages. At Sylt there was a collection of salvaged tail sections, ready to be recycled into the fleet - in fact some of the Sylt tails suggest they'd started life as a replacement sourced from the factory, attached to an a/c, removed and set aside for reuse.
Good old German efficiency and recycling...
D
As for questioning conclusions, I'm an academic remember - questioning things isn't a bad thing.
It's how we learn, how we're forced to rigorously examine our conclusions, how we revisit an idea or conclusion and with fresh eyes or more data or whatever, and maybe revise the conclusion... Or confirm it!
D
It's how we learn, how we're forced to rigorously examine our conclusions, how we revisit an idea or conclusion and with fresh eyes or more data or whatever, and maybe revise the conclusion... Or confirm it!
D
Love this
Crimea_River
Marshal
Me too. A bit off topic but then it's an old thread with new life. Thanks much Dan. I must get back to modelling a late LW rig. I missed your input on my recent Ta152 White 7 build as you were AWOL from here for a while. However, I still have 2 late series 109s I need to get to.
Dan IS the Man...
White 7 is a very interesting crate, and one of the few a/c that we can trace chunks of its life.
Was a very early machine (H-0 0007), that was initially Yellow 7, then appears to possibly changed Staffel and become White 7 around the time all the Ta 152's were amalgamated into the Stab Staffel - so was moved to the Stab, but kept its white code (as we see in pictures after the cessation); most a/c moved to the Stab Staffel were recoded Green... But there is a train of thought that suggests EITHER the Stab Staffel was 'bigger than an ideal Staffel', so was sort of formed into 'flights' within the Stab Staffel, using Green and Black codes for example, OR that the end was Nigh, and pilots left whatever colour code they felt most comfortable with on the a/c.
And thank you Wayne
Dan
Was a very early machine (H-0 0007), that was initially Yellow 7, then appears to possibly changed Staffel and become White 7 around the time all the Ta 152's were amalgamated into the Stab Staffel - so was moved to the Stab, but kept its white code (as we see in pictures after the cessation); most a/c moved to the Stab Staffel were recoded Green... But there is a train of thought that suggests EITHER the Stab Staffel was 'bigger than an ideal Staffel', so was sort of formed into 'flights' within the Stab Staffel, using Green and Black codes for example, OR that the end was Nigh, and pilots left whatever colour code they felt most comfortable with on the a/c.
And thank you Wayne
Dan
