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Source for the ceiling ?
I've waited two weeks of yours "Wright Field" comparison of Me262 vs. P-80A.
Are you just trolling here ?
SoD Stitch
Banned
Interesting quote from "American Raiders", by Wolfgang W. E. Samuel, published by University Press of Mississippi, concerning the Me 262/P-80 tests at Wright Field (pp. 21-23):
'(Walter) McAuley thought the Me-262 "performed slightly better than the F-80 (sic) but was a dog as far as handling characteristics, and a maintenance man's nightmare." McAuley's finding was contrary to the experience of Hal Watson and his men at Lager Lechfeld, where in the course of their exploitation efforts they recovered a number of Me-262 jets for return to the United States. Another Wright Field test pilot, Gustav Lundquist, felt that the "engines did not hold up well when operating near the redline limits and I had to make a couple single engine landings." After the war Chuck Yeager chose to become a Wright Field test pilot. It was General Arnold's policy to allow his fighter aces to choose any assignment they wanted, and Yeager wanted to try his hand at test flying. Yeager was one of several aces flying under Major Kenneth O. Chilstrom, the chief of the Wright Field Fighter Operations Section. Chilstrom had Yeager fly the Me-262. Yeager commented, "I was busy doing air shows and flight test work; being the most junior test pilot in the shop, I was lucky to be asked to make coffee, but I did manage to get a few interesting jobs. One of them was comparison testing between the Shooting Star and a captured German Me-262 jet fighter . . . . I was fascinated to discover the the 262 and the Shooting Star performed identically - the same range, top speed, acceleration, and rate of climb."
The final report published by Wright Field on the Me-262 concluded that it suffered from poor brakes, something common to all German aircraft and certainly no reflection on the Me-262, and that engine changes were a frequent requirement. The latter finding, of course, attested only to the early stage of jet engine development and the German inability to obtain critical raw materials such as chromium, nickel, and molybdenum. As for the 262's handling characteristics, the Wright Field test pilots rated them as poor. The probable cause was aileron and elevator servotabs which for some reason had been disconnected. This may have occured during disassembly for shipment, with the servotabs never being reconnected during reassembly. "The overall conclusion was that T2-711" - the number assigned to the aircraft by the Technical Intelligence at Wright Field - "was superior to the average Lockheed P-80A in acceleration and speed, and comparable in climb performance, despite a weight penalty of 2,000 lbs. A miximum True Air Speed of 568 mph was measured at a pressure altitude of 20,200 feet."
Any way one chose to look at the Me-262 jet fighter, it was a remarkable airplane. Bob Strobell, a P-47 pilot and one of Watson's Whizzers, said about the Me-262/P-80 comparison tests, "The final test report stated that the comparison tests were pretty close. No enormous advantage of one over the other. I don't really believe that. I think the Me-262 was superior to the P-80 across the board. I flew the 262, and that's what I believe." Other Whizzer pilots who flew the German jet, like Bob Strobell, felt that the Me-262 was a superior airplane, the very best of it's day.'
'(Walter) McAuley thought the Me-262 "performed slightly better than the F-80 (sic) but was a dog as far as handling characteristics, and a maintenance man's nightmare." McAuley's finding was contrary to the experience of Hal Watson and his men at Lager Lechfeld, where in the course of their exploitation efforts they recovered a number of Me-262 jets for return to the United States. Another Wright Field test pilot, Gustav Lundquist, felt that the "engines did not hold up well when operating near the redline limits and I had to make a couple single engine landings." After the war Chuck Yeager chose to become a Wright Field test pilot. It was General Arnold's policy to allow his fighter aces to choose any assignment they wanted, and Yeager wanted to try his hand at test flying. Yeager was one of several aces flying under Major Kenneth O. Chilstrom, the chief of the Wright Field Fighter Operations Section. Chilstrom had Yeager fly the Me-262. Yeager commented, "I was busy doing air shows and flight test work; being the most junior test pilot in the shop, I was lucky to be asked to make coffee, but I did manage to get a few interesting jobs. One of them was comparison testing between the Shooting Star and a captured German Me-262 jet fighter . . . . I was fascinated to discover the the 262 and the Shooting Star performed identically - the same range, top speed, acceleration, and rate of climb."
The final report published by Wright Field on the Me-262 concluded that it suffered from poor brakes, something common to all German aircraft and certainly no reflection on the Me-262, and that engine changes were a frequent requirement. The latter finding, of course, attested only to the early stage of jet engine development and the German inability to obtain critical raw materials such as chromium, nickel, and molybdenum. As for the 262's handling characteristics, the Wright Field test pilots rated them as poor. The probable cause was aileron and elevator servotabs which for some reason had been disconnected. This may have occured during disassembly for shipment, with the servotabs never being reconnected during reassembly. "The overall conclusion was that T2-711" - the number assigned to the aircraft by the Technical Intelligence at Wright Field - "was superior to the average Lockheed P-80A in acceleration and speed, and comparable in climb performance, despite a weight penalty of 2,000 lbs. A miximum True Air Speed of 568 mph was measured at a pressure altitude of 20,200 feet."
Any way one chose to look at the Me-262 jet fighter, it was a remarkable airplane. Bob Strobell, a P-47 pilot and one of Watson's Whizzers, said about the Me-262/P-80 comparison tests, "The final test report stated that the comparison tests were pretty close. No enormous advantage of one over the other. I don't really believe that. I think the Me-262 was superior to the P-80 across the board. I flew the 262, and that's what I believe." Other Whizzer pilots who flew the German jet, like Bob Strobell, felt that the Me-262 was a superior airplane, the very best of it's day.'
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
That fits´well into the general picture.
Colin is basically right, there is not much of a speed difference at typical combat altitudes. The Me-262 tested with 568 mp/h mentioned by SoD stitch above, is likely a better than average performing Me-262A. It´s 25 mp/h faster than the average of 125 Me-262A tested in 1944 at this altitude.
Differences between individual planes are not suprising, we know that the JV-44 had some, which were preferred over others in their inventory due to obvious differences in performance.
Dare to say that production quality controll was much less effective in Germany during the 1944/45 timeframe than was in the US. A given US made P-80 is more likely to be in a more narrow proximity to it´s legend performance than a german produced Me-262 (I admit this is speculation but a qualified one).
On the other hand, the mass test is what we do judge the performance of the Me-262, with tighter quality controll alone, the legend performance is likely to rise significantly. What I wanted to say is that the definitions of legend performance appearently do not match well in these two cases, this must be kept in mind.
Colin is basically right, there is not much of a speed difference at typical combat altitudes. The Me-262 tested with 568 mp/h mentioned by SoD stitch above, is likely a better than average performing Me-262A. It´s 25 mp/h faster than the average of 125 Me-262A tested in 1944 at this altitude.
Differences between individual planes are not suprising, we know that the JV-44 had some, which were preferred over others in their inventory due to obvious differences in performance.
Dare to say that production quality controll was much less effective in Germany during the 1944/45 timeframe than was in the US. A given US made P-80 is more likely to be in a more narrow proximity to it´s legend performance than a german produced Me-262 (I admit this is speculation but a qualified one).
On the other hand, the mass test is what we do judge the performance of the Me-262, with tighter quality controll alone, the legend performance is likely to rise significantly. What I wanted to say is that the definitions of legend performance appearently do not match well in these two cases, this must be kept in mind.
Well Stitch you beat me to it.
Brown has also on numerous occasions made it clear that they [RAE] achieved an average top level speed of over 900 km/h in the Me-262 and that handling characteristics were superb.
As for service ceiling, read the Me262 performance charts if you want to know it Timppa, calling me a troll for no reason has put you on my ignore list.
Brown has also on numerous occasions made it clear that they [RAE] achieved an average top level speed of over 900 km/h in the Me-262 and that handling characteristics were superb.
As for service ceiling, read the Me262 performance charts if you want to know it Timppa, calling me a troll for no reason has put you on my ignore list.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Stich - interesting post.
Something else to consider folks with regards to acceleration and speeds with these two jets.
Upon an engagement, whatever speeds they enter the engagement at is basically what they will be fighting with. As we know ALL early jets did not accelerate quickly and you were looking at up to a 30 second spool up time in some cases. Also remember that during any kind of combat speed will build up quickly and just as quick you'll find yourself in a terminal dive with only the speed brakes to save your tail.
Turning and roll rates will also be key but in the long run the slight advantage in speed and acceleration will be negligible if both aircraft are not accelerating quickly.
So with this said the one who manages energy the best will be the winner
Something else to consider folks with regards to acceleration and speeds with these two jets.
Upon an engagement, whatever speeds they enter the engagement at is basically what they will be fighting with. As we know ALL early jets did not accelerate quickly and you were looking at up to a 30 second spool up time in some cases. Also remember that during any kind of combat speed will build up quickly and just as quick you'll find yourself in a terminal dive with only the speed brakes to save your tail.
Turning and roll rates will also be key but in the long run the slight advantage in speed and acceleration will be negligible if both aircraft are not accelerating quickly.
So with this said the one who manages energy the best will be the winner
Eric "Winkle" Brown on the Me-262:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RACSnJDrfgA
Quote: "The top speed of this aircraft was 568 mph"
Thats 915 km/h as tested by Brown himself. He has previously quoted that the average top speed of the examples tested by the RAE in level flight was over 900 km/h.
The Germans achieved similar results, but because of the varying quality between each batch of engines coming off the production lines, the average top speed achieved by the Germans with 125 a/c tested was 873 km/h.
It should be mentioned that the Me262's tested by the RAE were in excellent condition, not something which could be expected from each a/c late in the war.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RACSnJDrfgA
Quote: "The top speed of this aircraft was 568 mph"
Thats 915 km/h as tested by Brown himself. He has previously quoted that the average top speed of the examples tested by the RAE in level flight was over 900 km/h.
The Germans achieved similar results, but because of the varying quality between each batch of engines coming off the production lines, the average top speed achieved by the Germans with 125 a/c tested was 873 km/h.
It should be mentioned that the Me262's tested by the RAE were in excellent condition, not something which could be expected from each a/c late in the war.
For those who don't want to rely on YouTube clips entirely, RAE test results (from WWII Aircraft Performance)
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me262/RAE-german-jets.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me262/RAE-german-jets.pdf
Strange, but the graph showing the top speed of the He 162 (if I am reading it correctly) seems to show the max speed as about 470mph when above 25,000ft.
This is the lowest figure I have seen and is almost 100mph less than the much publicised and generally accepted figure. Is there any particular reason for it being so low? Even in my own thread (I only have the one so I can call it that) I was asking whether the 'official' figure printed in Janes 1945/46 of 522mph was correct, but this seems much too low.
This is the lowest figure I have seen and is almost 100mph less than the much publicised and generally accepted figure. Is there any particular reason for it being so low? Even in my own thread (I only have the one so I can call it that) I was asking whether the 'official' figure printed in Janes 1945/46 of 522mph was correct, but this seems much too low.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
The test says that the reason for the He-162 eeing that low is connected with the engine, which did not develop the thrust they were designed for.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
One thing aout the RAE test worth pointing out is that the critical altitude for the He-162 tested was somewhere between 26.000 and 28.000 ft., while the specifications call for something around 20.000ft. as top altitude for the plane.
I understand that the same effect is testimonied once in a Me-262 level speed test, which again was based on somehow underperforming powerplants. The crit altitude raises but why? Has this something to do with the distance to their respective critical Mach figure? Just wondering.
I understand that the same effect is testimonied once in a Me-262 level speed test, which again was based on somehow underperforming powerplants. The crit altitude raises but why? Has this something to do with the distance to their respective critical Mach figure? Just wondering.
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
Interesting quote of Yeager. I suspect he wasn't fooling when he wrote that.
drgondog
Major
the one thing to keep in mind is that when Yeager flew the 262 and F-80 one was still being improved upon and the other had 'suspended' development for more than 18 months.
dragonandhistail
Airman
The P-80 was faster, more maneuverable, and had much more reliable armament. The German MK 103 cannon were short ranged and unreliable as well. Also the 262's turbojets were a danger to the pilot. P-80 hands down.
SoD Stitch
Banned
Here it comes . . . . . .
parsifal
Colonel
Yep...I know what you are thinking and I agree
KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
Shhh. Don't feed the troll.
yellowtail3
Recruit
- 2
- Nov 30, 2009
ludicrous. US pilots generally had far more flight time and better training the Luftwaffe pilots in 1945. You're repeating a myth by those who think every German pilot was an 'experten' - BIG myth.
Myth.
