Shortround6
Major General
Page from another website with different Me 410 bomb bay arrangements, I have no idea how many of them actually flew.
Me 410 bomb bay configurations
Me 410 bomb bay configurations
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But was it worth even developing the Me-210 or 410 with that mix of requirements involved compared to a couple more task-specific designs? (the Ju-88 airframe adapted to a variety of roles very well and for a heavily armmed, long range/endurance day fighter, something closer to the P-38 or Fw-187 would have made much more sense)Look at the Bf 110. It flew peasantly, performed well for a big twin, but was simply not up to mixing it with modern single-seat fighters in a daylight sky. In the end it turned into one of the best night fighters of the war, and easily the best night fighter for Germany. Night fighter wasn't it's primary design mission, but it adapted quite well.
The Me 410 could easily have done the same with other missions. But when it came into service, the primary need was to stem the tide of 1,000-plane raids over the motherland, and it wasn't quite up to doing that. Then again, neither were the single-seaters, so it is perhaps forgivable that the Me 410 didn't find a big niche there either.
For radar to be fitted, they'd probably have had to use an under-fuselage/nose position like the p-38, except with a much bulkier radar arangement with antenna antlers and likely more significant performance loss. (but also able to practically include a second crew member and still likely be lighter and better performing than the 219 -let alone available earlier)Heinkel managed to get the powerful head of the night fighter force to fund the He 219. The choice had been between the Fw 187 night fighter with twin seats and the He 219. The He 219 was chosen as the Fw 187 was seen as too small to carry necessary radio equipment. This despite the fact that the He 219 would need advanced new engines not yet in production: DB603, Jumo 213 or Jumo 222.
Not to mention a potentially heavy centerline armament, though given the small fuselage likely would have meant using cheek blisters or pods under the chin (or both) at least for mk 108s. (carrying the Me-262's 4-cannon armament would have been outstanding, but a mix of 30 and 20 mm guns like the Ta-154 would have been good too, and 4x MG-151s earlier on would be great as well -or even 4x MG-FF/M prior to the 151/20 becoming available -4x 20 mm also would have partially offset the disadvantage over the Bf-110 in terms of re-loading drums in-flight)That was the end of the Fw 187 whose potential as a long range very high speed daylight fighter and photo recon was apparently not appreciated.
Wouldn't the MW/50 equipped DB-605s at least be better off than the Jumo 211Js employed on the Ta-154 historically?June 1943, Me 410 with DB603A, 1750hp.
March 1944, Me 410 with Jumo 213A, 1750hp but more jet thrust. The Jumo 213A is being introduced on the Ju 188A at this time.
October 1944, Me 410 with Jumo 213A with Increased boost, 1900hp, as used on Fw 190D9
November 1944, Me 410 with jumo 213A with MW50 with 2100hp as used on Fw 190D9 at that time.
Also possible in late 1944 was the 1800hp DB603E using B4 fuel and the 2260hp DB603EM using C3+MW50. Delayed due to bombing and C3 shortages.
Again, what about the DB-605? (especially the high alt versions) Yes, there's always the Bf-109 logistial priority issue but if it's a sheer matter of having something functional or not ... but we're talking hypotheticals here and (potentially) ignoring political/doctrine specific pitfalls.The Ta-154 with BMW 801D should be a decent performer IMO.
Hmm - how about a DB-603E on B4 plus MW 50?
Though, I'd try and install every DB 603 I can find on the Fw 190
DB 603N (prototype with two-stage supercharger, C3 fuel)
Power (max): 2800 PS (2762 hp, 2059 kW) at 3000 rpm at sea level
Continuous: 1930 PS (1904 hp, 1420 kW) at 2700 rpm at sea level
Sure, but it was misused for what it was designed for and of course the war circumstances prevented it from achieving its potential. Without material restrictions and strategic bombing wrecking industry the Me410 would have had significantly better performance.I don't think the Me 410 development was worth the results achieved ... but I have hindsight. If faced with the task in the situation that was there who can say what decision anyone ELSE might have made ... especially considering the general reputation of Willy Messerschmitt.
Sure, the Me 210 was a failure, but MANY planes turned from flops into success by small changes. ny of us might have given Willy another chance, given his record of DOING it.
...
Again, what about the DB-605 [on Ta-154]? (especially the high alt versions) Yes, there's always the Bf-109 logistial priority issue but if it's a sheer matter of having something functional or not ... but we're talking hypotheticals here and (potentially) ignoring political/doctrine specific pitfalls.
Hmm, though the 603 might have been worth considering for Ju-88 night fighters too. (though given the altitudes usually used by British bombers, allotting more 801s to Ju-88s and 603s to Fw-190s would have been more sensible)
The "average pilots" were all flying transports and the poor pilots were washed out in training and became Navigators and Bombardiers.
Which does help explain a few things
Comparison: DB 603N ~ 2800 PS
Jumo 213J ~ 2600 -2700 PS
being of almost the same weight (I think) the 603N has the edge over the 213J in that race.
Is that right?
What sort of performance would the Me410 have been looking at had the Db603N gotten into service with C3 fuel?
Daimler-Benz DB 603 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sure, but it was misused for what it was designed for and of course the war circumstances prevented it from achieving its potential. Without material restrictions and strategic bombing wrecking industry the Me410 would have had significantly better performance.
But was it worth even developing the Me-210 or 410 with that mix of requirements involved compared to a couple more task-specific designs? snip
The Me 210 project was started in 1938 it would be a tough call to condemn the attempted improvement at that time. At that time dive bombers were the rage and this one would be as fast as a fighter. For instance as a tactical support aircraft dive bomber to replace the Ju 87 and Ju 88 it surely was survivable. In some ways it fused the Ju 87, Ju 88 and Me 110 (in its night fighter roles). It never received a radar because with only about 1000 built it wasn't considered worthwhile to repackage the bomb bay with electronics. It might have failed at some roles it probably would have excelled at several.
The Germans learned what would be called risk management from this pain. They reviewed and critiqued proposals closely after that and thereafter tended to have plan B's in place for risky parts of an aircraft, competing companies critiqued each other. The Ta 154 was perhaps the last poorly run one from the point of view of risk. Folks to day still make the same mistake: the F-111 was a fine fighter bomber but it may not have worked out well in the fighter roll it was at one time being developed for.
I tend to blame the inferior German fuels and a failure to complete their high altitude engine program such as the DB627 and DB628 which were DB601 and DB605 with independent two stage superchargers by the time the Merlin 61 appeared. The Germans had inferior engines from 1942 onwards to mid 1944 and stood no chance in my opinion.
There's been mixed arguments on whether the Bf-110 made a better night fighter than the Ju-88, snip
Both aircraft had advantages. The Ju 88 had more space and range, speed was fast once the BMW801 was fitted. When the first German microwave radars became available, the 9cm FuG 240 Berlin only the Ju 88 could carry. Latter the radars would become smaller but it helps to have a big fat machine with enough space to handle radar, radar detectors, navigation, blind landing secure communication equipment desirable.
The Me 110 with 3 crew was a bit squeezy, the radar operator couldn't bail out until the observer had for instance. Not a problem in the Ju 88.
I'm not actually sure the Fw-187 would be in the same boat though, given its size and twin engine (nacelle based) layout, it should have been able to be modified to accept a wider range of engines than its single-engine counterparts and being small/light compared to other twins (and bombers) would have still done fairly well with relatively mid-power engines. (Jumo 211s would have been the most straightfoward conversion from the originally intended DB-600s snip
There is a lot of flexibility with engine arrangements on the Fw 187 and one reason it missed production was shortages of the DB600 series engines. However with the DB601 or DB605 it promised stunning speed compared to the Me 109 that might have been enough to deal with the Mosquito.
My argument is that given the inferiority of Germans engines/fuels that accepting a rather small airframe and the resultant equipment limitations is the only possibility. It is still roomier than a single engine fighter.
For radar to be fitted, they'd probably have had to use an under-fuselage/nose position like the p-38, except with a much bulkier radar arangement with antenna antlers and likely more significant performance loss. (but also able to practically include a second crew member and still likely be lighter and better performing than the 219 -let alone available earlier)
snip though.
Late 43 the Luftwaffe did have a small AI radar, the Neptune, that could be fitted to the Me 109 and Fw 190. The lone pilot tended to loose his night vision after staring at the CRT but it could have been used well on the two seat Fw 187.
The up engined versions were the Ju 88R, a Ju 88C with BMW801 engines and the improved airframe Ju 88G1 (BMW801D), the Ju 88G6(Jumo 213A) and the Ju 88G7(jumo 213E) the latter, the G7 could do over 400mph in virtue of its two stage superchargers and perhaps more if it had of been fitted with MW50 etc. As the engines improved once modest airframes became competitive.
Not to mention a potentially heavy centreline armament, though given the small fuselage likely would have meant using cheek blisters or pods under the chin (or both) at least for mk 108s. snip
The Luftwaffe liked ventral gun packs on its night fighters, they were concerned to avoid disturbance of the pilots night vision by gun flash.
Wouldn't the MW/50 equipped DB-605s at least be better off than the Jumo 211Js employed on the Ta-154 historically?
That's an interesting thought.
I've never seen Daimler Benz engines proposed in any literature. It seems the Jumo 211N was chosen because 211 production was readily available. The two most advanced Jumo engines at the time were the Jumo 211F of 1350hp and the Jumo 211J of 1420hp, both had single stage two speed superchargers. The J gained due to an intercooler. The proposed engine for the Ta 154 was the Jumo 211N of 1450 hp, was essentially an improved F. There was also a proposed 211P of 1500hp with intercooler proposed for the Me 264 bomber.
When Galland flew and evaluated the Ta 154 he simply stated that the Jumo 211 engine aircraft couldn't cope with the Mosquito. I think he's qualified. Single stage Merlins had the same power in 1942 (around 1460) as was being proposed for a 1944 aircraft? Galland didn't specify an alternative engine.
The DB605A offered essentially the same power level as the Jumo 211N however in 1944 no less than 7 powerful modifications came in. Basically MW50 and enlarged superchargers that took power to 1700, 1800 even 2000 at higher altitudes. The AS,AM,ASM,DM,DC,DB,DB/DC.
Jumo 211 development was abandoned in favour of the reengineered Jumo 213 which was offering a solid 2100hp and promising as much as 2600-2800hp and was doing so with a two stage supercharger and an impressive 200kg jet thrust. I believe they didn't just want to match the mosquito but to exceed it.
Again, what about the DB-605? (especially the high alt versions) Yes, there's always the Bf-109 logistial priority issue but if it's a sheer matter of having something functional or not ... but we're talking hypotheticals here and (potentially) ignoring political/doctrine specific pitfalls.
I suspect 605 engine was too small by 1945, there was the two stage L that might keep the Me 109 going a bit longer but its usefull days were numbered.
BMW801D2 was offering 2050hp perhaps as early as late 1943 using C3 fuel. The BMW801TS of mid 1944 was offering the same power but over a larger altitude range, with fewer restrictions as to how WEP could be used, I believe essentially unlimited so long as the the engine didn't show signs of overheating. If MW50 had of been implemented it would have offered another 200hp.
So a good alternative engine at low-medium altitudes.
And there you go into the topic of diverting engines to the 190 as well, granted with the more universally advantageous 603. (that airframe seemed to be one of the most sensible places to be puting 603s as well as 213s, and the 603 allowed for a centerline cannone mounting as well)
The Jumo 213 and DB603 had the same engine mounts, same as the DB605 so the engine was easily adapted. Minor differences such as the side the air intake was one. The Jumo 213F,E all had centreline engine mounts as did the latter DB603. It was an issue of the mounts and the type of propeller. The Jumo 213A was a bomber engine.
The DB-605 AS(M) still seems like a useful candidate too, though, especially in as far as matching/beating the Mustang above 20,000 ft. (compared to using the 801, not the 603 or 213)
The Mustang is an extremely tough nut to crack, it must have been obvious to German planners that the P-51D could be improved (Eg P-51H and P-51K) and so the brute force of the Jumo 213 would have seemed the only way. Griffons were also in spitfires by 1943 so relying on an over boosted DB605DC nearing development limits.... The Ta 154 seemed to have airframe issues anyway, so there was time. A dozen Ta 154 did enter service. It was close to production but flawed due to the plywood lamination issues.
Hmm, though the 603 might have been worth considering for Ju-88 night fighters too. (though given the altitudes usually used by British bombers, allotting more 801s to Ju-88s and 603s to Fw-190s would have been more sensible)
RLM/Luftwaffe policy was that each two engine type had to have two alternative engines. This basic requirement was covered by the BMW801/Jumo 213 (and Jumo 211) but given that the DB603A was available in the first quarter of 1943, a full year ahead of the Jumo 213 it is a possibility. It would have given the Luftwaffe an aircraft perhaps 10mph faster than the 801 version that only required 87 octane fuel, ignoring the late 1943 advances in 801 engine power.
The 2-stage Mossies were minority, most of them used 1-stage Merlins, and Jumo 211 engines were almost there, especially the Jumo 211N/P.
snip
The Ta-154 with BMW 801D should be a decent performer IMO.
The power was there, maybe it was due to aerodynamics that made it under-perform? 1600 HP (1625 PS) at 18700 ft (no ram) is close to 500 HP more than what Merlin 20 series was making, and Me-410 was a smaller aircraft than Mossie. Not just that - the Merlin 72 was good for 1460 HP at 21000 ft, identically as much as DB 603A on that altitude.
snip.
The single stage Merlins were producing around 1460-1500 by 1942 around the time the Merlin 61 came in. This is as much power as the Jumo 211N would have been producing two year latter in 1944.
The Mosquito with single state Merlins used the two speed Merlin 23 and 25. The Merlin 25 at 18 psig produced 1620hp (1943) and produces almost the same power as the Merlin 66 (1700hp). The second stage and intercooler gains you 80hp (5%) in return for a 120kg / 20% increase in basic engine weight. Additional penalties apply in drag and weight to account for the larger radiator that cools the intercooler.
The Mosquito was quickly fitted with two stage Merlins for when the mission required it: Photo reconnaissance and Path finding or Marker bombing. Essentially if the mission went much above 15000ft.
The 1460hp DB603A you refer to is a 920kg 44Litre engine as opposed to the 740kg Merlin albeit the Merlin is likely no as fuel efficient at that setting. The Ta 154 with the DB603A or its Junkers equivalent the Jumo 213A might have been adequate to deal with basic Mosquitos but certainly not the Ta 154 with the Jumo 211N.
Remember a night fighter has flame dampers, radar antenna, unusual gun packs. Dealing with a path finding mosquito needs to take this penalty into account. Likewise a Ta 154 on a bombing mission over the UK needs a good cruising speed advantage. More streamlined British radar also extracted less speed penalty. Furthermore the RAF might at any time switch to two stage Merlins for missions above 15000ft for a more decisive advantage.
I doubt that.
Transport pilots flew multi engine aircraft over long distances in weather conditions which would have grounded Ju-87s and Me-109s.
I've read several Luftwaffe pilots biographies, In more than one it was mentioned that the flight students with the higher grades were chosen for Stukas.
I'm talking about the early WW2 time period.
You've got to admit it takes a certain type of pilot, one with extreme self confidence, to be able to stand a aircraft on it's nose and concentrate on a accurate bomb drop.
I guess it's time for me to start searching thru some old books.
A lot of transport pilots were in fact flight instructors doing two roles every time the a supply crisis developed. They were murdered in droves over the airborne assault over Holland, Crete, The Demyansk pocket resupply, Stalingrad and over the Mediterranean attempting to supply Rommel.
The Crete and Mediterranean losses were due to enigma decrypts, the Stalingrad losses due to difficult conditions.
It's been argued by John Mosier in "The Blitzkrieg Myth" that the losses of instructors in Holland to AAA and of landed Ju 52 was so severe it may have cost the Germans the battle of Britain. Mosier blames the limitations and inefficiency of the Ju 52 to a large part.
I believe there is a saying "Amateurs study Tactic's, professionals study logistics"
2-stage doesn't seem to be the breaking point here really. A good (large) single stage unit can work quite well, though inter/aftercooling and/or water injection is just as important. The DB 605-AS models compared relatively favorably with the 2-stage merlins as it was, the problem was getting the AM/ASM models out rather late. (the AM models compared rather favorably with the low/medium altitude tuned 2-stage Merlins too, and significantly better than the single stage ones)I tend to blame the inferior German fuels and a failure to complete their high altitude engine program such as the DB627 and DB628 which were DB601 and DB605 with independent two stage superchargers by the time the Merlin 61 appeared. The Germans had inferior engines from 1942 onwards to mid 1944 and stood no chance in my opinion.
Even with the DB-600 shortage, it was an odd move to perform testing with the Jumo 210 rather than 211. (or, rather, not so odd to use the 210 at all, but to target it for production AND not test the 211 at all) Even with the 211's limitations, it might have made the Fw 187 the fastest, best climbing, and possibly best turning fighter in the BoB. (probably not the best roll rate, though the 109, Spitfire, and Hurricane all had problems with heavy ailerons at high speeds)There is a lot of flexibility with engine arrangements on the Fw 187 and one reason it missed production was shortages of the DB600 series engines. However with the DB601 or DB605 it promised stunning speed compared to the Me 109 that might have been enough to deal with the Mosquito.
Somewhat less useful when you're targeting British bombers in the 18,000 ft range, though. High power at 15-20k feet is the envelope they needed. (which fits both the single stage 801 and 603 quite well)The up engined versions were the Ju 88R, a Ju 88C with BMW801 engines and the improved airframe Ju 88G1 (BMW801D), the Ju 88G6(Jumo 213A) and the Ju 88G7(jumo 213E) the latter, the G7 could do over 400mph in virtue of its two stage superchargers and perhaps more if it had of been fitted with MW50 etc. As the engines improved once modest airframes became competitive.
So for the Fw 187: remove the nose armament, install the AI radar in the nose, and the cannons in a belly pack.The Luftwaffe liked ventral gun packs on its night fighters, they were concerned to avoid disturbance of the pilots night vision by gun flash.
Trying to do that in wood was the real problem. The BMW 801, DB-603, or Jumo 213 would all ave fit well on a Mosquito-beating night fighter. (though DB-605s or even Jumo-211s might have managed that on a smaller twin like the Fw-187)Jumo 211 development was abandoned in favour of the reengineered Jumo 213 which was offering a solid 2100hp and promising as much as 2600-2800hp and was doing so with a two stage supercharger and an impressive 200kg jet thrust. I believe they didn't just want to match the mosquito but to exceed it.
Perhaps more limited by the 109 itself, mated exclusively to Messerschmitt fighters (and a handful of Italian fighters) greatly limited the design's potential usefulness.I suspect 605 engine was too small by 1945, there was the two stage L that might keep the Me 109 going a bit longer but its usefull days were numbered.
The single stage Merlins were producing around 1460-1500 by 1942 around the time the Merlin 61 came in. This is as much power as the Jumo 211N would have been producing two year latter in 1944.
The Mosquito with single state Merlins used the two speed Merlin 23 and 25. The Merlin 25 at 18 psig produced 1620hp (1943) and produces almost the same power as the Merlin 66 (1700hp). The second stage and intercooler gains you 80hp (5%) in return for a 120kg / 20% increase in basic engine weight. Additional penalties apply in drag and weight to account for the larger radiator that cools the intercooler.
The Mosquito was quickly fitted with two stage Merlins for when the mission required it: Photo reconnaissance and Path finding or Marker bombing. Essentially if the mission went much above 15000ft.
The 1460hp DB603A you refer to is a 920kg 44Litre engine as opposed to the 740kg Merlin albeit the Merlin is likely no as fuel efficient at that setting. The Ta 154 with the DB603A or its Junkers equivalent the Jumo 213A might have been adequate to deal with basic Mosquitos but certainly not the Ta 154 with the Jumo 211N.
Remember a night fighter has flame dampers, radar antenna, unusual gun packs. Dealing with a path finding mosquito needs to take this penalty into account.
Likewise a Ta 154 on a bombing mission over the UK needs a good cruising speed advantage. More streamlined British radar also extracted less speed penalty. Furthermore the RAF might at any time switch to two stage Merlins for missions above 15000ft for a more decisive advantage.