Glider
Captain
I see the Me410 as an equivalent of the Mosquito VI as a strike aircraft not a bomber and in that role it could have done quite well. Unfortunately the war situation was against it.
Me410 effective as a light bomber?
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The Me 410 entered service with the Luftwaffe in Early 1943, it was capable of 387 mph. Few allied fighters were much faster below its critical altitude.
Earlier, in June 1942, saw production of the improved Me 210A-1 "long" mainly made out of reworked Me 210A0/A1 airframes. This was the version that had the handling problems fully fixed. Tests the V16 and V17 prototypes had already proven the solutions. Fixes included a longer tail, slats, extra elevator trim tab, round instead of square intakes, dive brakes moved.
Comment is often made of the fact that it was little faster than the Me 110G with the same engines. It did however have a substantial internal bomb load (500kg/1100lb, in some circumstances 1000kg/2200lb) and so was not slowed when carrying bombs. It also had almost 66% more range. In combat the high G forces usually prevented the Me 110 observer from aiming his guns let alone reloading them. Long magazines and power assist solved this.
At the time of its entry into service the Me 210A1 "long" and new production Me 210C (plus Hungarian built Me 210Ca1) were as fast or faster than the P-40F and Spitfire V then in service. Only the Spitfire IX coming into service at the same time was as fast. As can be seen had the Me 210 entered service a year earlier as had been intended it would have been difficult to impossible to deal with and stolen a march. The delay seems to have cost it the opportunity of being selected for the massive investment into mass production.
When carrying a pair of general purpose bombs e.g. 2 x SC 500 the bomb baby doors bulged ajar slightly. There was no issue with the smaller semi armour piercing bombs such as the SD250, SD500, SD1000. The solution was the specially designed SB1000/410 bomb, an oval shaped 'parachute bomb. (The parachute was tiny, only about few inches, it served to replace fins and slowed descent enough to stop the explosives from spilling out on impact prior to detonation). Remember the Mosquito also needed specially cropped bombs to carry 2000lbs and it needed a specially bulged bomb bay to carry a 4000lb bomb. Perhaps bulged bomb bay doors was also a solution for the Me 410. Experiments on external 1200kg (3000lbs) and 1700kg(4000lb) bombs was also carried out successfully.
One of the envisaged roles of the Me 210/410 was the replacement of the Ju 87 and Ju 88 in the dive bomber role. It might have been a potent anti shipping weapon as a dive bomber and as a torpedo carrier (it could carry torpedos but was never deployed in that role)
It seems to have done well as a 'light bomber' in the East doing what light bombersd are meant to do, attack military formations, supply lines (columns of trucks) etc. In this case 8 x 50kg/110lbs bombs were often used. It could also dive bomb.
German engine builders and and airfrma builders generally had one hand tied behind their back, the lack of a fuel equal to allied 100/130 cost them at least 10%-20% power and 10mph or more speed.
Because of the delays and the resultant limited production it was never fully developed. The powerful new engines in the 2200+ hp class coming on line in late 1944 might have seen it come alive. As it was just over a year after entering service the Ar 234 Jet started flying its first reconnaissance missions.
The aircrafts reputation is undeserved, it was misused or used in such small quantities it stood no chance. The British never exposed the Beaufighter to German fighters. It was used far out to sea, on hit and run coastal raids with an escort and at night.
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Gixxerman
Senior Airman
For me it comes down to circumstances that apply to several of the later better German types.
Regardless of their qualities they were up against allied defences/aircraft that were often very similar in ability but they were just heavily outnumbered.
It's a bit like the tank situation, generally the Germans tried to counter much heavier numbers facing them with superior spec.
6,000 or so Panthers verses 50,000+ T34's 40,000 M4 Shermans.
Or Rommel in North Africa.
No matter how multi-role or capable you just can't hope to win with limited numbers facing such over-whelming well equipped supplied opponents.
The surprise is (in my view) how 'well' they did in the face of such odds.
My view is the Me410 (or the Me210c) were very impressive cleverly designed aircraft (once the bugs of the earlier me210 had been worked out) but ultimately, like the jets etc etc just too late in too few numbers to make any real difference to anything but the ultimate toll in lives lost before final defeat.
Regardless of their qualities they were up against allied defences/aircraft that were often very similar in ability but they were just heavily outnumbered.
It's a bit like the tank situation, generally the Germans tried to counter much heavier numbers facing them with superior spec.
6,000 or so Panthers verses 50,000+ T34's 40,000 M4 Shermans.
Or Rommel in North Africa.
No matter how multi-role or capable you just can't hope to win with limited numbers facing such over-whelming well equipped supplied opponents.
The surprise is (in my view) how 'well' they did in the face of such odds.
My view is the Me410 (or the Me210c) were very impressive cleverly designed aircraft (once the bugs of the earlier me210 had been worked out) but ultimately, like the jets etc etc just too late in too few numbers to make any real difference to anything but the ultimate toll in lives lost before final defeat.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
How do you define excessive?
Me-210/Me-410 was a dive bomber. It had to be strong enough to pull out of a near vertical dive without ripping wings or tail off.
Me-210/Me-410 was a dive bomber. It had to be strong enough to pull out of a near vertical dive without ripping wings or tail off.
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- #26
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
No, but 90 degree dives were out for all aircraft by the time it was introduced anyway due to risks of ground fire. The Bf110 was able to be accurate in a 60 degree glide, which the Me410 was capable of. The Fw190F was capable of 90 degree dives, but stuck to 60 degree glides for the same reason.
The Panther is a good example. It actually required half the man hours to produce than the Panzer Mk IV despite using 50% more steal. It was rushed into service and initially suffered reliability problems though these were mostly solved within the year. It was however effective as a military vehicle and gave the Germans an advantage. One problem which hung around was a intermediate drive which used straight cut gears instead of herring bone gears as might be seen on the lighter Sherman. This was a gear cutting tooling issue. The solution the Germans came up with incidentally was a planetary gearbox on the last mark of panther though not quite mass produced. Aircraft such as the Ju 288 had the spars pressed out in one stamping operation but it didn't come together because of delays with the Jumo 222 engine (it took both sides 6 years to debug a piston engine, hence problems with Sabre, Jumo 222, R-3350). These issues of obtain tooling and machine tools and setting up factories.
So if you introduce a technically superior product you might have to put up with initial maintenance issues.
Ramping up Me 410 production in 1943 would have seemed unattractive even if it was technically the best aircraft. Fw 190F and 109G were doing a good job in the ground attack role, the Ju 88 series with BMW801 engines seemed fast enough to handle the night fighter role, the jets were tantalisingly close (though elusive) and the V weapons were promising as well.
In addition there had been ongoing controversy over the Ta 154, He 219 and Fw 187. All were competitors to some degree with the Me 210/410. With the benefit of hindsight only the Fw 187, despite limitation due to its small size, had a chance of making a difference by being ready in large production numbers.
The Me 210/410 was designed to carry the Stuvi 5B dive bombing sight. As the pilot dove onto the target it continuously computed the impact point and moved the reticule making it easy to adjust the aim. The short nose helped keep the target in view at shallow dive angles. The Me 210/410 also had armoured glass window between the pilots legs to give him a 'helicopter' style view for lining up the target. This kind of bombsight was used also in the latter Ju 88, often for shallow 22 degree dives and also late modle the Ju 87 for near vernicle dives. I would imagine the minimum dive angle was determined by the view over nose. There was an attachment, the BZA "Bomb Ziel Automat" which automated this device even further.
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- Thread starter
- #30
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
If that's the case, why make the Me410 at all? Or the He-219/Ta-154? Wouldn't it have made more sense to build just the Fw187 and drop the Me410, Ta154, and He219 to focus on the Ju88 for night fighting, Fw187 for bomber interception/long range escort/air superiority, and Fw190 for light bombing?
Shortround6
Major General
In some cases it is politics. In other cases, such as the Me 410, it may be due to plant capacity and tooling. How much of the tooling for the 210 could they use for the 410? How long before the 410 could be made in reasonable numbers?
There was no tooling for the Fw 187. a few, mostly hand built prototypes, same for the Ta-154, at least until 1944. what was the availability of the engines?
These are all considerations when trying to pick which plane to order in addition to best performance.
There was no tooling for the Fw 187. a few, mostly hand built prototypes, same for the Ta-154, at least until 1944. what was the availability of the engines?
These are all considerations when trying to pick which plane to order in addition to best performance.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Almost any aircraft is theoretically able to be accurate in a 60 degree dive under ideal conditions with expert pilots and no enemy air defenses.
Ju-87, Ju-88 and Me-410 could achieve results with average pilots under realistic wartime conditions. That's the difference between purpose built CAS aircraft and jury rigging aircraft not designed for the CAS mission.
Ju-87, Ju-88 and Me-410 could achieve results with average pilots under realistic wartime conditions. That's the difference between purpose built CAS aircraft and jury rigging aircraft not designed for the CAS mission.
The Luftwaffe considered the Ju87 the cornerstone of their CAS mission in early WW2, a very important factor in the success of their Blitzkrieg. They were supposedly NO average pilots flying Stukas, they were the elite.
Do you think they changed their requirements that much when they deployed the Ju88 and Me410 ?
Wish we could have that attitude today with the A-10.
DB,
The steeper the dive angle the smaller the error variables become. Pure vertical (90') means only wind needs to be accounted for (and the lower the release altitude the smaller that variable becomes).
Cheers,
Biff
Politics was a part.
The Me 210 (and its competitor the Arado 240) grew out of a requirement to replace the Me 110 and a perception that such an aircraft could also take on many of the roles of the Ju 87 and Ju 88. Because it was perceived as an improved Bf 110 it possibly didn't get the oversight it needed and well over 1000 were ordered of the plan with full commitment to production tooling and plant before the test flight.
The lead designer was Professor Woldemar Vogt. It's said however that Professor Messerschmitt personally intervened in the design process, using his power as a Director, to remove the slats and shorten the tail, presumably to try and increase performance. The Me 210 and Ar 240 had new more highly racked wing profiles presumably to reduce form drag and compressibility drag which would have had less benign stall characteristics anyway.
Whether or not the bad blood between Erhardt Milch and Messerschmitt had a part to play is hard to say. The animosity was certainly expressed verbally and Messerschmitt went broke.
It lead to jigs and tooling for the 1000 aircraft being largely useless and a production planning disaster as Me 110 and He 111 production had been stopped in anticipation of the Me 210 replacing the Me 110 and the Ju 88/188 taking over He 111 role. The Luftwaffe did pay RM600 million (equal to 600 aircraft) for essentially zero aircraft but this did not cover Messerschmitt's costs.
The Fw 187 started as a private venture in the wake of Focke-Wulfs loss to Messerschmitt's Bf 109 in the fighter competition. The Fw 187 was seen as a way of getting back into the fighter plane market, presumably with a unique product (a two engine aircraft designed to fight single engine units).
The Fw 187 had its champions but never seemed to gain enough traction, much effort seemingly put into engineering it to conform to the Zerstoerer concept which compromised its ability to compete with single engine aircraft.
The He 219 arose out of an advanced 470mph ejection seat bomber called Heinkel P.1065. Due to its complexity it was rejected by the Luftwaffe and its designer (Robert Lusser who designed the Me 109 and Fi 103 V1 flying bomb) was sacked. The simplified He 219 was the replacement.
Heinkel managed to get the powerful head of the night fighter force to fund the He 219. The choice had been between the Fw 187 night fighter with twin seats and the He 219. The He 219 was chosen as the Fw 187 was seen as too small to carry necessary radio equipment. This despite the fact that the He 219 would need advanced new engines not yet in production: DB603, Jumo 213 or Jumo 222.
That was the end of the Fw 187 whose potential as a long range very high speed daylight fighter and photo recon was apparently not appreciated.
The Ta 154 arose out of the perceived weaknesses of the Fw 187 and Me 410, the desire to take advantage of the great production capacity of Jumo 211 engines and to gain the advantages of the British Mosquito concept. The Ta 154 would have a large versatile bomb bay, use available engines, used wooden construction.
Unfortunately a Ta 154 with two 1450hp single stage supercharger equipped Jumo 211N/P running of 87 octane can't complete with a Merlin with two stages producing 1800hp and using 100/130. Adolf Galland assessed the The focke-wulf Ta 154 Moskito with Jumo 211 as unable to deal with the DeHaviland Mosquito.
The Ta 154 would have to wait for the Jumo 213 engine. (It was also slated for BMW two stage 4 speed BMW 801R). So delays while the engine was developed.
Furthermore Focke-Wulf were not experienced in the kind of stressed skin plywood construction used by DeHaviland. They had different woods and glues.
When a prototype Jumo 213 Ta 154 belly landed due to engine failure the crew were killed though the cabin looks intact though partially shattered. Kurt Tank was compelled to offer to build the crew cabin out of metal.
The Germans should have just stayed with building transports and trainers out of wood unless someone like the Hortens, who knew what they were doing, were involved.
Shortly thereafter Kurt Tank, in his capacity as director, cancelled the project. He was actually charged with sabotaging the war effort by a factory official and cursorily investigated. I'm sure they could have gotten the aircraft working, eventually.
The He 219 kept getting cancelled and reinstated. The Nachtjagt clearly liked it.
So the problem was that the Ta 154 needed a Jumo 213 class engine anyway and was thus delayed, don't know if the equivalent DB603A was ever considered. The He 219 worked with the DB603 engine but really needed advanced versions of it. When production of the Jumo 222 was scheduled for September 1944 one purpose was for the He 219.
Given the lack of suitable engines the He 219 and Ta 154 were mostly fairy tales till at least mid 1944.
The Me 410 just didn't have the power it needed to be a P-38 or DeHaviland Mosquito, nor did the Ta 154 or the He 219. Given their engine issues no German twin engine aircraft could compete with the Mosquito unless the Germans compromised airframe size; that means Fw 187 to me.
This is a rough chronology of what might have been.
June 1943, Me 410 with DB603A, 1750hp.
March 1944, Me 410 with Jumo 213A, 1750hp but more jet thrust. The Jumo 213A is being introduced on the Ju 188A at this time.
October 1944, Me 410 with Jumo 213A with Increased boost, 1900hp, as used on Fw 190D9
November 1944, Me 410 with jumo 213A with MW50 with 2100hp as used on Fw 190D9 at that time.
Also possible in late 1944 was the 1800hp DB603E using B4 fuel and the 2260hp DB603EM using C3+MW50. Delayed due to bombing and C3 shortages.
Jan/Feb 1945 Me 410 with Jumo 213F using C3 fuel 2240hp or Jumo 213E using B4+MW50 about 2050 to 2240hp. Both engines had two stage superchargers. The E differed in having an intercooler. Both engines were entering service in the Fw 190D12/D13 and Ta 152H. The first 200 engines suffered supercharger gearbox issues that were corrected.
Note the Jumo 213 was on the verge of being released for 2.0 ata boost so power levels of between 2240hp and 2300hp were becoming available even on the Jumo 213A irrespective of supercharger set type.
March 1945 Me 410 with DB603LA about 2260hp with two stage supercharger.
April? 1945 Me 410 with DB603L about 2400hp with two stage supercharger and intercooler.
Sometime Mid 1945 Jumo 213EB, I think around 2500hp. Beyond that 2600-2800hp for the Jumo 213J and DB603N.
The Me 410 might have been interesting again around Feb 1945 with two stage superchargers and around 2250hp.
rank amateur
Airman 1st Class
I wonder if it wouldn't have been worthwhile for the RLM to come up with a conversion simular to the one made to the Mosquito B MKL IV in order to permit the ME 410to transport larger bombloads internally without to much extra detrimental effects to speed and range. Perhaps a 1500 kg bomb could also be converted?
Seems to me that this would be a serious contender/complementr for the JU88 s
Seems to me that this would be a serious contender/complementr for the JU88 s
GregP
Major
I think it could have been a good plane and probably flew like one, but it was employed somewhat incorrectly for what it was. A lot of that might also have been the war situation, meaning they needed it to do a job which was not it's primary design mission.
Look at the Bf 110. It flew peasantly, performed well for a big twin, but was simply not up to mixing it with modern single-seat fighters in a daylight sky. In the end it turned into one of the best night fighters of the war, and easily the best night fighter for Germany. Night fighter wasn't it's primary design mission, but it adapted quite well.
The Me 410 could easily have done the same with other missions. But when it came into service, the primary need was to stem the tide of 1,000-plane raids over the motherland, and it wasn't quite up to doing that. Then again, neither were the single-seaters, so it is perhaps forgivable that the Me 410 didn't find a big niche there either.
Look at the Bf 110. It flew peasantly, performed well for a big twin, but was simply not up to mixing it with modern single-seat fighters in a daylight sky. In the end it turned into one of the best night fighters of the war, and easily the best night fighter for Germany. Night fighter wasn't it's primary design mission, but it adapted quite well.
The Me 410 could easily have done the same with other missions. But when it came into service, the primary need was to stem the tide of 1,000-plane raids over the motherland, and it wasn't quite up to doing that. Then again, neither were the single-seaters, so it is perhaps forgivable that the Me 410 didn't find a big niche there either.
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The 2-stage Mossies were minority, most of them used 1-stage Merlins, and Jumo 211 engines were almost there, especially the Jumo 211N/P.
Yep, De Haviland was probably on top of the game when it's about war-suitable aircraft made predominantly from wood
The Ta-154 with BMW 801D should be a decent performer IMO.
The power was there, maybe it was due to aerodynamics that made it under-perform? 1600 HP (1625 PS) at 18700 ft (no ram) is close to 500 HP more than what Merlin 20 series was making, and Me-410 was a smaller aircraft than Mossie. Not just that - the Merlin 72 was good for 1460 HP at 21000 ft, identically as much as DB 603A on that altitude.
All fair, but - Jumo 213A will not give any performance boost. A bit greater jet thrust is equalized by a bit less power. FWIW, the Me 410 need to either be used on the Eastern front as a fast bomber, or as a Night Fighter against RAF BC.
Hmm - how about a DB-603E on B4 plus MW 50?
Though, I'd try and install every DB 603 I can find on the Fw 190
Great engines, but there was no enough of them even for the Fw-190/Ta-152 production.
The bomb bay of the Me 410 was limited by the main spar, unlike what was the case for the Mossie. It was also 'pushed' a bit forward due to placement of the spar, meaning that greater bomb load could hamper the CoG.
RE: Me-410 interceptor
But the Allies changed the rules.
The heavy twins were armed-up to intercept the bombers, but the Mustang showed up to the party and ruined all the fun (for the Me-410 and other twins.)
