Meanwhile .. in Red Square

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... he and FDR were both out-maneuvered by Stalin from what I can deduce from various readings. Between 1939 and 1941, Hitler too was out-maneuvered repeatedly, especially in the realm of economic co-operation that was associated with the M-R Pact. Stalin's view was that Hitler needed him and Russia more than he needed Hitler-Germany. His view changed to increasing alarm after the swift fall of France in June, 1940.
 
"... Because he was continually undermined by Roosevelt"

Less true in the period from June, 1941 until after the Torch landing and the Morocco conference, IIUC.
 
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michaelmaltby said:
"... Because he was continually undermined by Roosevelt"

Less true in the period from June, 1941 until after the Torch landing and the Morocco conference, IIUC.
Click to expand...

I had always gotten the impression Churchill despised Stalin almost as much as Hitler, but given the choice, he'd rather deal with Stalin.

That said, he really didn't like Stalin as a leader and Roosevelt (and I'm a BIG Franklinphile) never perceived Stalin to be the threat he turned out to be. He saw Churchill's concerns as just British worry about what it would mean for their empire.

Essentially, Churchill saw the potential threat Stalin could be but Roosevelt didn't.
 
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I don't know, Mike. I have no doubt Churchill realized his dependency on the Soviets but that doesn't translate into true admiration for Stalin. I think Churchill's conversations with Maisky was calculated insurance.

Even Hitler and Stalin started as allies while harboring real hatred for each other.

I think Churchill was desperate to want to keep Stalin engaged in the war as Russia was the most serious threat in continental Europe to Nazi Germany and still recognize what Stalin was in reality - a murderous dictator but one that was on the allies side and one that may a problem in some future time.
 
"...Essentially, Churchill saw the potential threat Stalin could be but Roosevelt didn't."

No argument, however Churchill did not "despise" Stalin, IMO ... he feared him because he understood what Stalin was capable of. An intelligent person doesn't despise evil.
 
Attachment-1.jpg

How a tiny Baltic nation became a top destination for U.S. officials
 
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I suspect part of the reason was that many conservatives conflated the external security threat of the USSR with the internal security threat of bolshevism, the latter frequently to the point of hysteria (ooh.. workers want to actually be paid enough to live, it must be them commies causing them to be so disobedient )and both Roosevelt and Truman carried their disdain for that sort of inanity to discounting Stalin as an external security threat. The conservatives were seen crying wolf, in seeing communists behind any protest, and they may have felt that the antipathy to Stalin was just the same sort of thing.

I've also wondered how different history would have played out had the Bolshevik Revolution failed. I don't think Germany's post-WWI politics would have played out any differently, nor do I think would most other countries', but without the Soviet bugbear, Hitler may have been dealt with earlier. (I also think any Russian government would have invaded Ukraine, Georgia, Poland, the Baltics, and Finland;it's not like Russia had a history of playing nice with its neighbors)
 
If the 1917 revolution had failed, yes, history might have been very different and we can speculate on that however I can't endorse your claim: "... The conservatives were seen crying wolf, in seeing communists behind any protest, and they may have felt that the antipathy to Stalin was just the same sort of thing. "

Stalin was the Comintern until he disbanded it as an irritant to his relationship with GB and USA. From the signing of the M-R Pact in August, 1939, until Barbarossa in June, 1941, the mandate the Comintern issued to French, British, US unions and 'activists' was to hamper by strike and demonstration the allied efforts to rearm in preparation for war.

General Motors President/Lt General William Knutsen, an industrial genius reported to FDR that the major roadblock to industrial militarization and productivity was industrial strike action and protest. He knew his stuff better than anyone and was not a man to cry wolf.

All changed of course after June 22, 1941. Communists are masters of bending logic to ideology ... not unlike unhelpful voices like Al Gore, Jane Fonda and others of their colour. After the German attack it was the ceaseless bleating of "Second Front NOW!!!!" regardless of the realities of supply, strategy and geography. This was communism.

As for Russian territorial ambitions ... the Baltic Democracies, Ukraine and much else were seized by Peter the Great, Catherine the Great and subsequent Russian leaders. Putin is simply trying to roll back history to a previous status and this needs to be understood clearly. Cyber hacking in Russia is completely in character with Soviet KGB practices.

The secret police of Tsarist Russia was the largest such service in Europe .... all in character with an oligarchy/kleptocracy.
 
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