Medieval Combat

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

In Colorado, the closest Fair to me is the Scottish Festival, in Estes Park. This year it goes from September 6 - 9.

It's go a lot of Scotty stuff like bagpipes and jigging, but it also has events like jousting, and last year my sister said they had a catapult. The jousting was good, first time I ever saw it.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Trackend,

>If you had recieved a wound from the drawing of a bill it would be said that,
"it was a fluke"(hence the saying).

Hm, if I read etymonline right, this saying was first recorded in 1857:

Online Etymology Dictionary

By the way, you can search for expression with medieval roots on etymonline:

Online Etymology Dictionary

Great fun, but I have no idea how accurate the site might be

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[trackend]

Hm, if I read etymonline right, this saying was first recorded in 1857:

Thanks for the input HH however I disagree with that site. The expression a fluke does mean as roughly explained in your link it also means an unusual or stroke of luck (Collins concise dictionary) but the word in itself describes the shape not the action, Getting caught with a fluke is I still believe the origin.
It was unlucky for this to happen as you must have already managed to avoid the initial thrust of a bill but where caught on the draw by the fluke, which for the user of the bill was indeed a fluke.

trackend, was that picture taken at a Renaissance Faire or something? We've got our local Renaissance Faire coming up starting next week, I'd really like to attend again this year.

Detling SS have a look at the Detling 2007 thread


Carrying on the pole arms theme and linking with Plan D's post on foot Knights
anyone who knows someone with the name of Catch-pole may be interested in the picture below as this is a Catch-pole. The idea was for the guy to get behind a Knight or someone worth ransoming and push this spring loaded manacle around their neck the pole was long enough to keep the captive at a safe distance and he could be forced off the field of battle for later ransoming, which was very handy as a subsidy collection method for funding campaigns. The original catch-poles had spikes inside the collar so if you caught a sub standard hostage, with a good hard push you could skewer him then go and look for someone more profitable.

 

[SoD Stitch]

Carrying on the pole arms theme and linking with Plan D's post on foot Knights
anyone who knows someone with the name of Catch-pole may be interested in the picture below as this is a Catch-pole. The idea was for the guy to get behind a Knight or someone worth ransoming and push this spring loaded manacle around their neck the pole was long enough to keep the captive at a safe distance and he could be forced off the field of battle for later ransoming, which was very handy as a subsidy collection method for funding campaigns. The original catch-poles had spikes inside the collar so if you caught a sub standard hostage, with a good hard push you could skewer him then go and look for someone more profitable.

There were more than a few English knights who made their fortunes over in France during the 100-Years' War; some of them had more than they could carry back to England and had to leave it in Calais.

 

[plan_D]

A lot of money could be made on land, yes, but most military expeditions were funded by the deeds done at sea. Men of standing throughout the medieval and imperial ages found themselves upon the sea to gain their fame and fortune. The medieval English navy had many knights on the land who also served at sea when the time came.

 

[Clave]

Fascinating thread - and I know that Catchpole is a fairly common surname in England...

 

[trackend]

A lot of money could be made on land, yes, but most military expeditions were funded by the deeds done at sea. Men of standing throughout the medieval and imperial ages found themselves upon the sea to gain their fame and fortune. The medieval English navy had many knights on the land who also served at sea when the time came.

Dead right plan D, prize money was profitable ex-navy men often came ashore and set up business to help subsidies their retirement. pubs/inns especially were popular thats why so many still have seafaring connections with names like The Ship,The Anchor, ect.

 

[SoD Stitch]

Dead right plan D, prize money was profitable ex-navy men often came ashore and set up business to help subsidies their retirement. pubs/inns especially were popular thats why so many still have seafaring connections with names like The Ship,The Anchor, ect.

Wow! I did not know that; I consider myself a student of British history (Middle Ages, mostly), but I didn't know that about the pubs. So, I guess it was more profitable to be in the Royal Navy (or Marines) than the Majesty's army?

 

[trackend]

You're right SS. Although the army has never as a whole been royal, regiments yes but unlike the RAF and RN its never had the word royal at the beginning. The Navy is know as the senior service as it was the first force formed with royal decree.
But as you say it was more profitable to be in the navy.
Navy pay was poor but so was the armies, taking a ship as prize meant the whole crew got a bonus obviously depending on rank would depend on amount with the lions share going to the skipper. But it was not unheard of for a sailor to come ashore with with a small fortune compared to his normal salary. Which in the 1500's roughly £15 a year,
This Inn is about the oldest in the UK Ive been in its built into the wall of Nottingham castle. Not a bad pint either I took the shot a couple of weeks ago.
This link gives you the history behind it
The Trip to Jerusalem - Nottingham

 

[mkloby]

Nice shot. Why is it that there's the British Army and ROYAL Air Force and ROYAL Navy? I don't understand that... they were formed by royal decree - is that what you mentioned above?

 

[trackend]

Basically its that Henry the VIII wanted his own navy so he had one built which made it the Kings Navy or Royal Navy before this time ships tended to either be supplied buy the same source as the armies the lords,gentry ect or were built and then sold off after they had been used virtually none of them were a standing (permanent) force the loyalty of the lords ect was assured by bribery with gifts of land and wealth issued out by the monarchs and mostly it was how they got to their positions in the first place. The king only had a limited standing force of his own and not big enough for a major campaign but enough to keep the odd lord ect in check should he go off the rails. So what you end up with is various regiments/forces owned or supplied by the gentry but not directly the Kings own forces where as the Navy was the monarchs navy under his/her control and by allowing prize money for the crews it helped ensure it remained loyal (of course the biggest share of the prize always went to the monarch). As far as I know this is briefly how it came about but obviously the Army has its Royal patronage such as the Royal Anglian, Royal Engineers etc ect but it was never a single army directly run/owned by the monarchs . The RAF became the Royal Air force after the amalgamation of Royal Naval Air Service Royal Flying Corps in I believe 1918 but the name Royal was for patronage reasons and obviously nothing to do with who controlled the force.

 

[mkloby]

Good info. Thanks for the reply Trackend.

 

[plan_D]

A standing "Royal Navy" was created at the end of Henry VIII's rule. It is widely accepted that Henry VIII was a visionary and saw the requirement for a large standing navy. However, it seems more likely that Henry VIII created the need for the navy with his ambitions that led to an isolated England.

A large contribution to the English navy was the excise tax, but throughout the centuries there had been countless taxes and extortion methods to provide for the navy. What 16th Century England did achieve was a long lasting navy with the creation of a naval structure; administration and logistical support. However, Henry VIII proved his short-sight as it was not he who developed the naval adminstration.

An average figure in the 1550s for all seaman (this is the average of 'deadshare' and all ranks) was 9s 4d (s = schillings, d = pence) a (28-day) month. The first actual pay scale for rank was in 1582:

For a (28-day) month):

1st Rate:

Master - £2 1s 8d
Master Gunner - 10s
Surgeon - 15s
Seaman - 10s

2nd Rate:

Master - £2
Master Gunner - 10s
Surgeon - 15s
Seaman - 10s

6th Rate:

Master - £1 1s 8d
Master Gunner - 10s
Surgeon - (N/A)
Seaman - 10s

I have the other positions and other rates of ships if anyone is interested.

 

[DOUGRD]

Fascinating thread guys!!!!!!!! MORE-MORE!!

 

[trackend]

To add to the naval theme heres a few nautical terms

Brig One of the smaller but more versatile warships of the sailing era was the two masted 'brigantine' (French word for 'Bandit'), or 'brig' as it was abbreviated by the Royal Navy. Small, fast, and well-armed for its size, it served as a scout for the bigger ships, patrol vessel, convoy escort, and errand boy for the fleet. In the last case, it would often be used to run mail, fresh provisions, spare parts, and personnel back and forth to England. Admiral Nelson found them very handy to transport prisoners of war. So many were his victories and so great was his success that for a period of time nearly every brig arriving in England had prisoners aboard, and so many were modified as sea going jails for this express purpose. With every ship having at least one or two troublesome crewmen as well as an occasional prisoner of war, it was customary to put him in the ships own "brig" for a spell.

Gung-Ho - Someone enthusiastic about a job, mission, or effort. Usually applied to US Marines and often among themselves as both an insult and a compliment. It is a Chinese phrase meaning, "work together", or "all together", such as when pulling a heavy weight. This was adopted by US Marines stationed in China just before WW II, and then later formalized as the official slogan for Marine Colonel Carlson's Second Marine Raider Battalion.

Bitter End From the old Norse word "bitt" or beam. A pair of posts fixed on the deck of a ship for securing lines. "Bitter" became a term for a single turn of a cable around the bitts, which was usually the very end of the rope. It became applied to a situation when a person was at the last extremity or very end of his resources. A parallel definition comes from the end of a rope that sometimes hangs over the side of a ship and is closest to the ocean. It's very end is "salty" or "bitter" since it often trails in the water.

Bo'sun Variation of 'Boatswain'. Medieval English in origin. 'Boot' (boat) + 'Swain' (Boy, or Servant). A petty officer on a merchant ship having charge of hull maintenance and related

Between the Devil and The Deep Blue Sea - Falling Overboard, and in great danger. The "Devil" is the longest strake, or seam of the ship's bottom. A luckless sailor who fell overboard and submerged in this fashion had little choice or chance, since he was at the very bottom of the ship.

Before the Mast - Signing on a ship's crew as an ordinary seaman on a merchant vessel, or sometimes as an enlisted sailor on a naval ship. It refers to the fact that the ship rapidly narrows towards the bow after the foremost mast, where it is impractical to stow cargo. Quite naturally, especially aboard merchantmen, it is where the regular crew have their sleeping quarters. Officers and passengers had theirs aft. Popularized by Richard Dana's novel, "Two Years Before the Mast"

Ahoy - This was once the dreaded war-cry of the Vikings.

Aloft The old High German word for 'air' was 'luft', which was combined with the French term 'a', meaning 'go to'. thus 'a luft' became 'aloft' in old English. It means 'to go into the air', or 'climb the mast'.

Yankee - Reported to be Dutch in origin. Fishing boats from Holland often fished off of the coast of what is now New England. Indeed, many of the early settlers in New England and New York were Dutch, and so many of them had the common sur-name of 'Jan', the plural form of which was 'Janke'. Due to the peculiarities of Dutch pronunciation, 'J' is commonly sounded as 'Y' to English speakers. It has since become broadly applied to any New Englander, and eventually, to any North American.

Avast Contraction of two French words, 'Haud Vast', meaning to 'hold fast'. In other words, hang on and stop what you're doing.