Thorlifter
Captain
Are there records of planes like the A-20G, Beaufighter, B-25J, or similar planes that were armed as gun ships scoring aerial victories? Almost in a dogfight role I mean.
Medium bomber aerial victories
- Thread starter Thorlifter
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Shortround6
Major General
B-26s in the Med shot down German supply aircraft on at least one occasion if not more.
I am sure that somewhere, somehow, some poor Axis boob ( said in a friendly manner) managed to overshoot his attack on one of these aircraft and would up flying in front of it and a quick reacting pilot triggered the guns.
A British pilot in a Hurricane during the BoB managed the same trick when on the verge of bailing out his aircraft. He had jettisoned the canopy and undone his straps and was standing up when he notice the 109 in front of him, reached down and triggered the guns and then completed the bail-out.
Beaufighters aren't quite in the same class. Being designed as long range fighters from the start they may have dueled with Me 110s and Ju 88s over the North sea or Bay of Biscay on a more regular basis.
Not to mention their night fighter victories.
I am sure that somewhere, somehow, some poor Axis boob ( said in a friendly manner) managed to overshoot his attack on one of these aircraft and would up flying in front of it and a quick reacting pilot triggered the guns.
A British pilot in a Hurricane during the BoB managed the same trick when on the verge of bailing out his aircraft. He had jettisoned the canopy and undone his straps and was standing up when he notice the 109 in front of him, reached down and triggered the guns and then completed the bail-out.
Beaufighters aren't quite in the same class. Being designed as long range fighters from the start they may have dueled with Me 110s and Ju 88s over the North sea or Bay of Biscay on a more regular basis.
Not to mention their night fighter victories.
Wildcat
Major
Beaufighters certainly had many aerial victories with many pilots becoming aces on the type. As for bombers, I know of occasions when RAAF Beauforts managed to intercept and shoot down a couple of Japanese floatplanes.
Didn't some British or South African chap use his Maryland as a fighter? Warburton I think his name was...
- Thread starter
- #5
Thorlifter
Captain
I know you meant it light hearted.....made me laughGood point. I did mean light/medium bombers.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Me-210 / Me-410 probably had the most daytime aerial victories of any light bomber. Mosquito had a few too.
IMO these two aircraft stand above other light bombers for survivability vs enemy aircraft during daytime combat.
IMO these two aircraft stand above other light bombers for survivability vs enemy aircraft during daytime combat.
Probably most of Me 210s/410s were heavy fighters, some recon planes and rest more like heavy twin engine fighter bombers like Mossie FB VI and IMHO Mossie was better in that job and probably had better survivability.
On topic at least 14 Sqn (RAF) Marauders shot down at lest a Me 323 and a Ju 90 in Med in the summer 43.
Juha
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I saw a show on "Clash of Wings" where it was claimed a Hudson had the first RAF kill of the war and took part in dog fights over Dunkirk.
Sorry
this is off topic but just for the records
The first RAF kills, unfortunately own goals:
6 Sept 39 The Battle of Barking Creek, Spitfires of "A" Flight of 74 Sqn shot down 2 Hurricanes of 56 Sqn (1 KIA)
The first confirmed RAF kill, later found invalid:
20 Sep 1939 - Sgt F Letchard, a gunner in a Fairey Battle, claims the first RAF victory of the war, he claimed a German Bf 109 during a patrol near Aachen. Later confirmed by French troops. There was in fact no LW losses.
The first true kill by a a/c of the UK armed forces
26 September 1939
The first Luftwaffe aircraft is shot down during operations against the United Kingdom. A Dornier Do18D flying boat of 2/Küstenfliegergruppe 506 is shot down by a Blackburn Skua of No.803 Squadron, Fleet Air Arm, operating from the aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal
The first RAF kill Wednesday, 27th September 1939.
JGr.152 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1.
Shot down by return fire during attack on No.103 Squadron Battles west of Hornbach and crashed near Bockweiler, 1230 hrs. Gefr. J. Scherm killed. Aircraft a write off.
Juha
this is off topic but just for the records
The first RAF kills, unfortunately own goals:
6 Sept 39 The Battle of Barking Creek, Spitfires of "A" Flight of 74 Sqn shot down 2 Hurricanes of 56 Sqn (1 KIA)
The first confirmed RAF kill, later found invalid:
20 Sep 1939 - Sgt F Letchard, a gunner in a Fairey Battle, claims the first RAF victory of the war, he claimed a German Bf 109 during a patrol near Aachen. Later confirmed by French troops. There was in fact no LW losses.
The first true kill by a a/c of the UK armed forces
26 September 1939
The first Luftwaffe aircraft is shot down during operations against the United Kingdom. A Dornier Do18D flying boat of 2/Küstenfliegergruppe 506 is shot down by a Blackburn Skua of No.803 Squadron, Fleet Air Arm, operating from the aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal
The first RAF kill Wednesday, 27th September 1939.
JGr.152 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1.
Shot down by return fire during attack on No.103 Squadron Battles west of Hornbach and crashed near Bockweiler, 1230 hrs. Gefr. J. Scherm killed. Aircraft a write off.
Juha
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Calling an aircraft a "heavy fighter" doesn't make it so.
The Me-210 / Me-410 had a bomb bay, bomb sight and heavy armor for protection against ground fire. Just like the A-20, B-25, B-26 etc.
The Me-210 / Me-410 had a bomb bay, bomb sight and heavy armor for protection against ground fire. Just like the A-20, B-25, B-26 etc.
Mossie FB VI had also a bomb bay but it wasn't a medium bomber or even a light bomber. And for ex. most of 410 Bs were Zerstörers, some were recon planes and none seems to have been delivered as bombers according to Mankau's and Petrick's Bf 110/Me 210/Me 410 book. The were high speed bomber versions of 210s and 410As but also most of 410As were not bomber versions.
The General der Kampfflieger would have gladly exchanged his Me 410 A-1s for Ju 88 Ss and given the 410s to Galland. So IMHO 210/410 don't belong to this tread any more than Mossie FB VI.
Juha
Juha
Glider
Captain
IRO bombers being used in air to air combat Baltimores were often used against transport as they had decent fixed weapons 4 x 303 followed by 4 x 0.5 but the one that I often see reports of is the Hudson. There are a number of reports where RAF Hudsons have taken on enemy aircraft. The RAAF Hudson on display at Hendon was credited with a Sally bomber and a Pete Floatplane,
Shootout Between an H6K and a B-17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the Solomons, there were air to air combat between long range patrol planes which came across each other during their long overwater flights. In such encounters, US B-17 (PB-1) and B-24(PB4Y)s were almost always superior to their Japanese opponents which were mostly slower, less heavily armed, and almost unarmored flying boats and floatplanes. Type 2 Flying boats (H8K2) proved to be more of a match, but however exceptional its performance was as a flying boat, the handicap against the land-based planes were undeniable.
When the Japanese started losing flying boats in a rapid succession, they at first did not realize the casualties were being caused by enemy patrol planes, because most of them were apparently shot down before they could radio an detailed message about their opponents.
Lt. Hitsuji, 851 NAG, was commanding an H6K (Mavis) in November 1942, and became one of the first to find out what shot down Japanese patrol planes and survive. The following is a translation from his memoir "Saigo no Hikotei (The Last Flying boat)" (Asahi Sonorama, ISBN4-257-17286-X).
"Enemy plane! Close! Starboard and to the rear!" the tail gunner reported.
"All men on air to air battle station!" I yelled as I put the plane in a full speed dive to sealevel.
It was 0700 November 21, 1942, 150 nautical miles south of Guadalcanal. We were in midst of a very bloody battle, losing flying boats almost every day to unidentified enemy activities. Our boats would have just enough time to radio a consecutive "hi" signal (consecutive signaling of the Japanese Morse code signal for the character "hi", the initial for "hikoki" or airplane) before the shoot-out followed by silence. Very few survived air combat. If a boat is able to make detailed reports about the enemy, that boat was sure to make it back.
Our commanding officer was in distress about the mounting losses, and just a few days ago, I had assured him that this will not go on for long. So far 16 of our boats were lost. I was not about to be number 17. It wasn't a patrol plane's duty to engage in air battles, but now I had no choice.
I figured that the fight must be decided quickly. The B-17 positioned itself above and to the starboard rear of our plane and followed us with ease. It must be radioing it's base about our position. One of them was bad enough. If there were two or even fighter planes we did not have a chance. I made a tight turn to the port and headed towards the enemy. The only chance we had was the relatively small turning radius of our slow plane compared to that of the fast B-17.
The enemy was obviously surprised at our sudden turn. As we passed each other, our tail cannon fire hit the B-17 and its port inside engine started smoking. The enemy fled, trailing a long streamer of black smoke. The enemy was surprisingly inpersistent. We continued our search mission, but I had a feeling that it wasn't over yet.
"Eat your breakfast now before they come back" I ordered and went to the commander's seat to open my lunchbox. Pretty soon the co-pilot silently pointed his finger forward and to the port. I took a hard look, and there he was. Another big-tailed B-17 heading straight toward us. The one we damaged must have called for help. We were all ready to fight, and I stood up from my seat. I sealed the tank chamber and pulled the fire extinguisher lever. This fills the tank chamber with CO2. All gunners manned their stations. I could see the front gunner grinning in his turret.
"Okay we're ready" someone said.
At altitude 30 meters and speed 150 knots, we headed towards squally skied in the direction of our base. The enemy didn't start his attack immediately. It flew alongside us and passed us. I figured that he was avoiding our tail cannon. It would probably be making a frontal attack. The shoot-out was about to begin.
"Here it comes!" someone shouted, and at the same time, the enemy's front guns and all four of our starboard machine-guns started firing. As we passed each other, I could see the enemy's tail gun fire, but tracers were way behind us. No hits on either side. We didn't change our course and headed toward the squall.
The faster enemy caught up quickly and crisscrossed our path, attacking as it passed us.
We were at very low altitude, and the sea behind us whitened with machine-gun fire. As the shooting went on, this started moving closer and closer. I could not hear anything other than the roar of the machine-guns and the engine noise. I couldn't keep my eyes off the enemy for a moment. The enemy made its fourth pass, and as it crossed our path, a 50 caliber shell jumped into the cockpit.
I heard someone yell "Damn!" and smelled smoke at the same time. I turned around and two men were down on the floor. Our main radio man PO2 Watanabe's left arm was hanging limp from his shoulder, and blood was shooting up to the ceiling. Flight engineer Leading Mechanic Nakano was down on the floor, holding his left arm, and shouting "Gasoline, gasoline!".
He was yelling to the radioman because the spark from the telegram key could set the vaporized gasoline on fire. But the injured radio man continued to send the message that we were combating an enemy bomber. The enemy started making yet another pass.
I took off my muffler and threw it to Lt. (jg) Ide who was shooting away, and yelled "Stop his bleeding!" I could see from the tank chamber window that gas was gushing out of a hit tank. It was a miracle that it wasn't on fire. The floor was soon covered with gas. I injected additional CO2 gas, and I could see the white gas filling the tank chamber. The injured mechanic was still yelling "Gasoline!". I could only yell back "It's okay! You worry about yourself!"
We were able to stop the radioman's bleeding, but the enemy still kept attacking. Amid the exchange of machine gun roar, I could hear bullets tearing into our plane. The plane shook under the impact. All four engines were driving at full power.
On their sixth pass, the moment I saw their tailgun fire, there was an enormous banging noise up front gunner PO1 Takahashi pointed to the floor beneath the pilot's seat and I noted a big hole about 30cm, on the keel of our bow. I could see waves from the hole.
By this time, I was sure that this enemy has shot down more than one flying boat. "It wasn't fighters. It was this guy. Another patrol plane!. I'm going to get him. He is not going to have anymore kill marks!" As I came to this realization, there was a new determination in my mind. If we can't donw him with our guns, we will ram him. I drew and loaded my pistol.
"If worse comes to worst we'll ram him, okay?" I patted the main pilot Ensign Kobayashi's sholder with my pistol. He nodded lightly. "Okay, we're ready then". My mind was set. I was going to shoot myself at the moment of the ramming so I would die before the crew.
I noted that the side panel of the commander's seat was burning hot. I was shocked to find the bullet that hit the crew crewmen perched in the panel. Had I not been standing, this bullet would have hit my back! (This bullet is still in my possession).
I noticed that the enemy's fire was getting considerably weaker. Either some of their gunners were knocked out, or they were out of ammo. I was getting the feeling that we may be able to make it when the co-pilot suddenly put the plane in a dive. The sea was right in front of us.
"Not yet!" I yelled, thinking that he was about to ram the B-17, but soon realized that our co-pilot PO1 Kira evaded a collision with the enemy who came in from the side. The enemy passed about 30meters behind us. The tail gunner poured an entire drum of 20mm cannon shells into the B-17.
The shells all hit the enemy's fuselage. The enemy passed us from the right, then banked left and started closing into our plane. I could see the enemy pilot's face. I couldn't help but fire my pistol at the enemy.
Maybe the enemy was trying to ram us too. I noticed all his guns were pointing random directions. He must have been out of ammo. He flew alongside us banking and yawing for a while, but eventually disappeared into the rain towards Guadalcanal, trailing gasoline. "We won!" we said to each other, but we could no longer fight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lt. Hitsuji's H6K made it back to Shortland, but taxing was something of a small adventure. After splashdown, as soon as the bow came down, water started gushing in from the hole in the bow. Since they did not have material to close the big hole in the bow, they stuffed their life jackets into the hole. This obviously wasn't holding up, and six men piled up on the life jacket-stuffed hole to stop the water. By the time they were beached, these men had their head barely above water. Everyone was covered with water, oil, and blood.
Their plane #36 (could have been O-36 or 851-36 or 51-36) had endured ninety-three 50 caliber bullets.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the Solomons, there were air to air combat between long range patrol planes which came across each other during their long overwater flights. In such encounters, US B-17 (PB-1) and B-24(PB4Y)s were almost always superior to their Japanese opponents which were mostly slower, less heavily armed, and almost unarmored flying boats and floatplanes. Type 2 Flying boats (H8K2) proved to be more of a match, but however exceptional its performance was as a flying boat, the handicap against the land-based planes were undeniable.
When the Japanese started losing flying boats in a rapid succession, they at first did not realize the casualties were being caused by enemy patrol planes, because most of them were apparently shot down before they could radio an detailed message about their opponents.
Lt. Hitsuji, 851 NAG, was commanding an H6K (Mavis) in November 1942, and became one of the first to find out what shot down Japanese patrol planes and survive. The following is a translation from his memoir "Saigo no Hikotei (The Last Flying boat)" (Asahi Sonorama, ISBN4-257-17286-X).
"Enemy plane! Close! Starboard and to the rear!" the tail gunner reported.
"All men on air to air battle station!" I yelled as I put the plane in a full speed dive to sealevel.
It was 0700 November 21, 1942, 150 nautical miles south of Guadalcanal. We were in midst of a very bloody battle, losing flying boats almost every day to unidentified enemy activities. Our boats would have just enough time to radio a consecutive "hi" signal (consecutive signaling of the Japanese Morse code signal for the character "hi", the initial for "hikoki" or airplane) before the shoot-out followed by silence. Very few survived air combat. If a boat is able to make detailed reports about the enemy, that boat was sure to make it back.
Our commanding officer was in distress about the mounting losses, and just a few days ago, I had assured him that this will not go on for long. So far 16 of our boats were lost. I was not about to be number 17. It wasn't a patrol plane's duty to engage in air battles, but now I had no choice.
I figured that the fight must be decided quickly. The B-17 positioned itself above and to the starboard rear of our plane and followed us with ease. It must be radioing it's base about our position. One of them was bad enough. If there were two or even fighter planes we did not have a chance. I made a tight turn to the port and headed towards the enemy. The only chance we had was the relatively small turning radius of our slow plane compared to that of the fast B-17.
The enemy was obviously surprised at our sudden turn. As we passed each other, our tail cannon fire hit the B-17 and its port inside engine started smoking. The enemy fled, trailing a long streamer of black smoke. The enemy was surprisingly inpersistent. We continued our search mission, but I had a feeling that it wasn't over yet.
"Eat your breakfast now before they come back" I ordered and went to the commander's seat to open my lunchbox. Pretty soon the co-pilot silently pointed his finger forward and to the port. I took a hard look, and there he was. Another big-tailed B-17 heading straight toward us. The one we damaged must have called for help. We were all ready to fight, and I stood up from my seat. I sealed the tank chamber and pulled the fire extinguisher lever. This fills the tank chamber with CO2. All gunners manned their stations. I could see the front gunner grinning in his turret.
"Okay we're ready" someone said.
At altitude 30 meters and speed 150 knots, we headed towards squally skied in the direction of our base. The enemy didn't start his attack immediately. It flew alongside us and passed us. I figured that he was avoiding our tail cannon. It would probably be making a frontal attack. The shoot-out was about to begin.
"Here it comes!" someone shouted, and at the same time, the enemy's front guns and all four of our starboard machine-guns started firing. As we passed each other, I could see the enemy's tail gun fire, but tracers were way behind us. No hits on either side. We didn't change our course and headed toward the squall.
The faster enemy caught up quickly and crisscrossed our path, attacking as it passed us.
We were at very low altitude, and the sea behind us whitened with machine-gun fire. As the shooting went on, this started moving closer and closer. I could not hear anything other than the roar of the machine-guns and the engine noise. I couldn't keep my eyes off the enemy for a moment. The enemy made its fourth pass, and as it crossed our path, a 50 caliber shell jumped into the cockpit.
I heard someone yell "Damn!" and smelled smoke at the same time. I turned around and two men were down on the floor. Our main radio man PO2 Watanabe's left arm was hanging limp from his shoulder, and blood was shooting up to the ceiling. Flight engineer Leading Mechanic Nakano was down on the floor, holding his left arm, and shouting "Gasoline, gasoline!".
He was yelling to the radioman because the spark from the telegram key could set the vaporized gasoline on fire. But the injured radio man continued to send the message that we were combating an enemy bomber. The enemy started making yet another pass.
I took off my muffler and threw it to Lt. (jg) Ide who was shooting away, and yelled "Stop his bleeding!" I could see from the tank chamber window that gas was gushing out of a hit tank. It was a miracle that it wasn't on fire. The floor was soon covered with gas. I injected additional CO2 gas, and I could see the white gas filling the tank chamber. The injured mechanic was still yelling "Gasoline!". I could only yell back "It's okay! You worry about yourself!"
We were able to stop the radioman's bleeding, but the enemy still kept attacking. Amid the exchange of machine gun roar, I could hear bullets tearing into our plane. The plane shook under the impact. All four engines were driving at full power.
On their sixth pass, the moment I saw their tailgun fire, there was an enormous banging noise up front gunner PO1 Takahashi pointed to the floor beneath the pilot's seat and I noted a big hole about 30cm, on the keel of our bow. I could see waves from the hole.
By this time, I was sure that this enemy has shot down more than one flying boat. "It wasn't fighters. It was this guy. Another patrol plane!. I'm going to get him. He is not going to have anymore kill marks!" As I came to this realization, there was a new determination in my mind. If we can't donw him with our guns, we will ram him. I drew and loaded my pistol.
"If worse comes to worst we'll ram him, okay?" I patted the main pilot Ensign Kobayashi's sholder with my pistol. He nodded lightly. "Okay, we're ready then". My mind was set. I was going to shoot myself at the moment of the ramming so I would die before the crew.
I noted that the side panel of the commander's seat was burning hot. I was shocked to find the bullet that hit the crew crewmen perched in the panel. Had I not been standing, this bullet would have hit my back! (This bullet is still in my possession).
I noticed that the enemy's fire was getting considerably weaker. Either some of their gunners were knocked out, or they were out of ammo. I was getting the feeling that we may be able to make it when the co-pilot suddenly put the plane in a dive. The sea was right in front of us.
"Not yet!" I yelled, thinking that he was about to ram the B-17, but soon realized that our co-pilot PO1 Kira evaded a collision with the enemy who came in from the side. The enemy passed about 30meters behind us. The tail gunner poured an entire drum of 20mm cannon shells into the B-17.
The shells all hit the enemy's fuselage. The enemy passed us from the right, then banked left and started closing into our plane. I could see the enemy pilot's face. I couldn't help but fire my pistol at the enemy.
Maybe the enemy was trying to ram us too. I noticed all his guns were pointing random directions. He must have been out of ammo. He flew alongside us banking and yawing for a while, but eventually disappeared into the rain towards Guadalcanal, trailing gasoline. "We won!" we said to each other, but we could no longer fight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lt. Hitsuji's H6K made it back to Shortland, but taxing was something of a small adventure. After splashdown, as soon as the bow came down, water started gushing in from the hole in the bow. Since they did not have material to close the big hole in the bow, they stuffed their life jackets into the hole. This obviously wasn't holding up, and six men piled up on the life jacket-stuffed hole to stop the water. By the time they were beached, these men had their head barely above water. Everyone was covered with water, oil, and blood.
Their plane #36 (could have been O-36 or 851-36 or 51-36) had endured ninety-three 50 caliber bullets.
Measures were immediately taken to improve the defensive capability of the flying boats. The following conversions were made on the field.
1) Fuel tank protection : All fuel tanks were covered with rubber, and held together with wire net. (Hitsuji notes that American self-sealing tanks with the rubber inside the tank was much more effective, but that couldn't be done in the field.)
2) Improved defensive armament: Machine-guns on H6Ks were increased from one 20mm and seven 7.7mm to three 20mm (tail and waist) and five 7.7mm (front, dorsal, ventral, and fuselage sides).
3) Armor: 20mm armor plate behind the pilots' seat and 20mm shield at gunners' positions. However, Hitsuji notes that the armor behind the pilot was something of a mixed blessing. Since they didn't have bullet-proof glass, if the bullet came in from the front and hit the pilot , the bullet would not just pass through, but be deflected by the armor plate and tear the pilot's body apart.
4) Increased air to air gunnery training.
These conversions amounted to 1.5 tons in additional weight, but this did not affect speed and range performance.
Lt. Hitsuji survived the war to become the last Japanese pilot to fly the H8K2 when he flew the big boat to Yokohama and where it was handed over to the US occupational forces. He was escorted by a PBY, but had to fly in zigzag pattern to keep from overtaking the PBY.
Type 97 Flying boat vs B-17
1) Fuel tank protection : All fuel tanks were covered with rubber, and held together with wire net. (Hitsuji notes that American self-sealing tanks with the rubber inside the tank was much more effective, but that couldn't be done in the field.)
2) Improved defensive armament: Machine-guns on H6Ks were increased from one 20mm and seven 7.7mm to three 20mm (tail and waist) and five 7.7mm (front, dorsal, ventral, and fuselage sides).
3) Armor: 20mm armor plate behind the pilots' seat and 20mm shield at gunners' positions. However, Hitsuji notes that the armor behind the pilot was something of a mixed blessing. Since they didn't have bullet-proof glass, if the bullet came in from the front and hit the pilot , the bullet would not just pass through, but be deflected by the armor plate and tear the pilot's body apart.
4) Increased air to air gunnery training.
These conversions amounted to 1.5 tons in additional weight, but this did not affect speed and range performance.
Lt. Hitsuji survived the war to become the last Japanese pilot to fly the H8K2 when he flew the big boat to Yokohama and where it was handed over to the US occupational forces. He was escorted by a PBY, but had to fly in zigzag pattern to keep from overtaking the PBY.
Type 97 Flying boat vs B-17
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Beaufighters and Mosquitos scored plenty of victories in daylight while on ETO strike missions, although I wouldn't call them 'medium bombers', more like heavy-fighters or twin engine fighter-bombers.
The Banff and Dallachy strike wings ran across all sorts of German fighter and bomber aircraft during 1944/1945. The Banff Wing even managed to claim a Ju-88 (3 or four hits) and a FW 190 with their 57 mm armed Mk XVIII 'Tsetse' Mosquitos - the FW 190 kill is confirmed in German records as an A-3.
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Glider
Captain
These combats have always had a hold over me. Probably one of the slowest combats would be Arado 196 vs Whitley and I think it was a Saro London vs He111
