Moral objections on warfare.

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

Status
Not open for further replies.

And this I agree with! Well said.

GT said:
My reply to that is that the lives would be spared anyhow and all of the unnecessary casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be avoided as they were civilians.
Click to expand...


And please explain how this would have happened.
 

THANKS FRIEND - YOU KNOW I ONCE LIVED IN CANADA!
 
St. Catherines, the home of Popeyes (not the chicken place ). Great peeler bar!
You say you lived here. Did you actually live in Halifax? If so, when?

I'm not looking for your life story, I'm just curious.
 
I visited Halifax quite a bit 1983-1988. Had to visit a company that manufactured P-3 parts. Live in St, Catherines 1986-88.

Yea - the peelers in Canada can't compare to anywhere.
 
FLYBOYJ said:
Yea - the peelers in Canada can't compare to anywhere.
Click to expand...
Obviously you never stopped in at the Lighthouse while you were in Halifax!
I think they used to grab bag ladys off the street!
Fortunately, they tore it down. Ralph's ain't a bad spot though.

And now folks, back to "Moral objections on warfare". Didn't mean to sabotage another one.
 
TODAY'S NEWS!

New Anti-Japanese Protests Erupt in China

By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN, Associated Press Writer

SHANGHAI, China - Chanting "Japanese pigs get out," protesters threw stones and broke windows at Japan's consulate and Japanese restaurants in China as some 20,000 people defied government warnings to protest Tokyo's wartime history and its bid for a permanent U.N. Security Council seat.

Peaceful protests were reported in two other cities. Beijing remained calm. Police stood guard on Tiananmen Square to block a planned demonstration in the heart of the capital, a day ahead of a visit by Japan's foreign minister. Paramilitary police surrounded the Japanese Embassy, where protesters smashed windows last weekend.

Japan's Embassy said two Japanese were injured in Shanghai after being surrounded by a group of Chinese, Kyodo News agency reported. The extent of their injuries was not immediately known.

The third weekend of anti-Japanese protests erupted despite government demands for calm. The nation's communist leaders apparently worry that the protests might do more damage to relations with Tokyo, which are at their lowest point in decades, or encourage others to take to the street to protest corruption or demand political reforms.

Tensions between Tokyo and Beijing have been fueled by disagreement over the U.N. Security Council, gas resources in disputed seas and new Japanese textbooks that critics say minimize Japan's wartime offenses.

In Shanghai, protesters gathered around the Japanese Consulate. Police in riot helmets kept them away from the building but let protesters throw eggs and rocks. A group of young men broke the windows of a Nissan sedan and flipped it onto its roof.

In a nearby street, protesters broke windows of about 10 Japanese-style noodle shops and bars, many of them Chinese-owned. Others broke the windows of a police car, chanting "Kill the Japanese" after a rumor spread that a man sitting inside was Japanese. The car drove away before the crowd could grab him.

The violence followed a march from City Hall to the consulate by about 5,000 people. They carried banners written in English that said "Say No to Japan in the Security Council" and chanted "Japanese pigs get out!"

Japan filed an official protest, complaining that Chinese authorities failed to stop the violence.

"Even though information was available beforehand to infer that there would be a demonstration, nothing was done to prevent it ... and we strongly protest to the Chinese government," Japan's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

About 2,000 people marched through Hangzhou, southwest of Shanghai, shouting slogans condemning Japanese militarism, the official Xinhua News Agency reported. In Tianjin, east of Beijing, about 2,000 protesters held a peaceful one-hour march.

Police also blocked a protest in the southern city of Guangzhou, shooing away people who tried to gather at a stadium.

In Japan, meanwhile, police were investigating an envelope of white powder sent to the Chinese Embassy in Tokyo. China's government said it lodged a formal protest with Tokyo following the incident with the envelope.

Japan's Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura was asked by reporters if he planned to cancel a trip to Beijing on Sunday.

"That option is not out of the question, but at present we are proceeding as planned," Machimura was quoted as saying by assistant press secretary Akira Chiba.

Japan warned its citizens in China about possible danger in advance of the protests. The United States issued a similar warning.

Mazda Motor Corp., Suzuki Motor Corp. and Toshiba Corp. were canceling nonessential business trips to China, while other Japanese companies told employees in the country to take safety precautions.

Some suggested Beijing permitted the protests last weekend to support a campaign to block Tokyo's Security Council bid.

Beijing is alarmed at a proposal to give a permanent Security Council seat to Japan, which it regards as a regional rival. Such status is now held by only five governments — China, the United States, Britain, France and Russia, which wield veto power.

"I think that permitting the demonstrations provides leverage by creating a very public symbol of the depth of anger among the Chinese people toward Japan," said Murray Scot Tanner, a China specialist at the Rand Corp. in Washington.

Premier Wen Jiabao cited the protests Wednesday when he said during a visit to India that Tokyo wasn't ready for a Security Council seat until it faced up to its history of aggression.

But other Chinese officials tried to distance the government from the protesters. A Cabinet official quoted Friday by Xinhua denied that it supported "extremist actions."

Beijing is eager to preserve economic relations with Japan, which the Chinese Ministry of Commerce says has $47.9 billion invested in China.

On Friday, police in Beijing warned that protesters could face legal action. Police appealed to the public to trust the Communist Party to deal with Japan and not to threaten "social stability."

In Shanghai, police didn't try to stop the protest, though state newspapers said no one had received permission to hold one. At one point, police posted a sign saying "March route this way."

The march in Shanghai was the first in China's commercial capital in the recent wave of anti-Japanese protests.

"The Chinese people are angry," said one marcher, Michael Teng, a graduate student at Donghua University. "We will play along with Japan and smile nicely at them, but they have to know they have a large, angry neighbor."
 
["First of all, the A-bomb had already been tested. Your contention that the choice to drop the bomb was in order to test it is nonsense."]

- What I meant was that the US wanted to test the A-bomb on a City and its occupants and that was the only opportunity that they had.


"The dropping of the A-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the best thing that could have happened to the Japanese "

- Tell it to the surviving victims with their cancer and their children that are born with cancer!!


- I believe that you have read some other documents than I have, so I will not insult you as you did! This is some quotes from that report:

"The timing of the Potsdam Conference interfered with a plan to send Prince Konoye to Moscow as a special emissary with instructions from the cabinet to negotiate for peace on terms less than unconditional surrender, but with private instructions from the Emperor to secure peace at any price."

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

"We underestimated the ability of our air attack on Japan's home islands, coupled as it was with blockade and previous military defeats, to achieve unconditional surrender without invasion. By July 1945, the weight of our air attack had as yet reached only a fraction of its planned proportion, Japan's industrial potential had been fatally reduced, her civilian population had lost its confidence in victory and was approaching the limit of its endurance, and her leaders, convinced of the inevitability of defeat, were preparing to accept surrender. The only remaining problem was the timing and terms of that surrender."

Regards
GT
 

Attachments

  • to_victory_143.jpg
    30.7 KB · Views: 507
  • dont_lose_direction_114.gif
    21.1 KB · Views: 490
[Sabru Sakai - Now theres a class act! I met him in the 1970's, the most interesting and compassionate individual you could meet!]

Yes, Saburo Sakai, A humble man that I meet May 1982 in California and one time in Hawaii, the one eyed ace was playing golf better than the next guy. I was sad when he died on 22 Sept 2000, a great man had left us.

Cheers
GT
 

Attachments

  • saburo_sakai_915.jpg
    42.1 KB · Views: 508

That simply is not true. The USA had two motives behind dropping the A-bomb:

1) Force the Japanese to accept immeadiate unconditional surrender.

2) Demonstrate to the Soviets both that we had the A-Bomb and that we were willing to use it. This was necessary to stop Soviet agression and territorial expansion in Asia and in Europe.

GT said:
"The dropping of the A-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the best thing that could have happened to the Japanese "

- Tell it to the surviving victims with their cancer and their children that are born with cancer!!
Click to expand...

Cancer rates are not as high as one would expect, though they are higher than other populations. It might be noted also that a large number of people who worked and lived around the Oakridge and other nuclear materials locations suffer higher than normal cancer rates too.

This has to be weighed against the cost in lives of continued conventional bombing, which would have outmeasured this several times over. It has to be weighed against the cost had the Soviets ended up occupying at least part of Japan as well.


GT said:
- I believe that you have read some other documents than I have, so I will not insult you as you did! This is some quotes from that report:
Click to expand...

GT, I think you have read only one side of the argument. The way you presented your argument is insulting.


The Japanese decision to seek a surrender through the Soviets was mis-guided. The Soviets had no desire to see Japan surrender before they were fully embroiled in that theater of the war. What the Japanese were talking with the Soviets about is totally irrelevant because the Soviets were not trying to broker a peace with the USA on their behalf. How can use the Japanese attempt to have the Soviets broker a peace with the USA as an argument why the USA should not have used the A-bomb on Japan when the Soviets never approached the USA on Japan's behalf?


You should have started this paragraph with the sentance "Based on a detailed investigation of all evidence after the facts". The testimony of those Japanese leaders is also highly suspect, and besides that it was not available to US leadership at the time so it is irrelevant anyway. Japan had stated over and over that they would never surrender - that it was against thier code of honor to do so - and that they would die to the last man, woman, and child in defense of the Emperor.

It is not fair to hold US leadership accountable for not having considered information that was not available to them at the time.

Besides, had it taken until mid-November to secure an unconditional surrender:

1) many more Japanese would have died from conventional bombing than died from the A-bombs.

2) the Soviets would surely have occupied all of Manchuria and Korea, and probably Hokkaido and perhaps part of Honshu as well.

Adding these two things together, Japan would surely have suffered at least an additional 2 to 3 million casualties, mostly civilian. But more than that, the cost in terms of the future of Japanese society would have been tremendous. It probably would not have survived.


This last bit is pure BS. Again, I think you need to study Japanese history a little more. Japan was effectively ruled by the victors of a military coup with the Emperor acting as their sometimes willing and sometimes not so willing puppet. Most of Japanese leadership wanted to continue the war until the USA agreed to a less than unconditional surrender. They wanted at the very least protection for both the Emperor and themselves from post war retribution, and they wanted to prevent or minimize any occupation of Japan. Your last sentance says it all....

"The only remaining problem was the timing and terms of that surrender."

This shows an utter lack of understanding of the situation at the time. The only "terms" of surrender were no terms at all! And that was not going to change. Nothing short of unconditional surrender was acceptable.

This was critically important. The USA had declared and insisted this be the goal both against Germany and Japan. In this way, after the war, the German's and Japanese could not deny the generosity of how they would be treated. They would not be enslaved, even though they sought to enslave others. Their economies would be rebuilt, even though they sought to tear down and pillage the economies of others. And in the case of Japan, the Emperor would be spared, not because the USA had to spare him as part of a negotiated peace, but simply as a sign of respect for the Japanese culture and as bridge to quell the animosity of a proud but vanquished peoples.

The Marshall plan was the most generous treatment of vanquished foes in history, but it required uncondtional surrender. And it required that Japan surrender without being invaded, otherwise US losses would have been far too high for the American people to ever accept rebuiliding Japan as an industrial power.

=S=

Lunatic
 
The quotes were from United States Strategic Bombing Survey
Summary Report, Pacific War and if you think that is BS it´s up to you. I think it it obvious who is BS.

Cheers
GT
 

Attachments

  • use_the_bomb_621.gif
    58.8 KB · Views: 448

Please use the quote button GT like I have here. It is easier to read your posts. If you do not know where it is at there is a button that says Quote on it.

GT said:
Tell it to the surviving victims with their cancer and their children that are born with cancer!!
Click to expand...

Small price to pay to end a war. How many more generations do you think would have been lost had the bombs not been dropped. Sorry my friend but the Japanese were too pridefull to surrender. The war would have dragged on and more lives including many more innocents would have been lost. Was it neccessary for more to die?
 
CHINA IS PISSED! MORE OF JAPAN'S PAST COMING BACK TO HAUNT THEM!

China Rejects Japan's Demand for Apology
By JOE McDONALD, Associated Press Writer

BEIJING - China on Sunday rebuffed Tokyo's demands for an apology after sometimes violent anti-Japanese demonstrations, while new protests took place in several cities over perceived efforts by Japan to gloss over its wartime history and to gain a permanent U.N. Security Council seat.

Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing instead pointed a finger at Tokyo for the heightened tensions, which have been fueled by anger over Japan's wartime aggression and anxieties about Tokyo's military and diplomatic ambitions.


"The Chinese government has never done anything that wronged the Japanese people," Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing told his visiting Japanese counterpart.

Li said Japan, instead, was to blame for "a series of things that have hurt the feelings of the Chinese people" over issues such as relations with rival Taiwan and "the subject of history" — a reference to new Japanese history textbooks that critics say minimize Tokyo's World War II-era atrocities.

Many Chinese believe Japan has never truly shown remorse for its prewar invasion of China.

Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura appealed to Li to protect his country's diplomats and citizens. Tokyo denounced Saturday's violence in Shanghai, where police stood by as 20,000 rioters — some shouting "Kill the Japanese!" — threw stones, eggs and plastic bottles and broke windows at the Japanese Consulate and damaged restaurants and cars.

"I wish the Chinese government would sincerely handle this matter under international regulations," Machimura said, apparently referring to treaties obligating Beijing to protect diplomatic missions.

Japanese public broadcaster NHK quoted Machimura as saying Sunday in Tokyo that he would warn Beijing that relations, "including on the economic front, could decline to a serious state."

Relations between the Asian powerhouses also have soured amid disagreements over Taiwan, Japan's bid to join China as a permanent member of the powerful Security Council and gas resources in disputed seas.


Earlier this year, Japan and the United States appealed in a joint statement for a peaceful resolution of Taiwan's future status. Tokyo had sought to avoid direct involvement in the dispute over the self-ruled territory, which split from the communist mainland in 1949.

China's legislature last month passed a law authorizing the use of force if Taiwan moves toward formal independence.

In the southern cities of Shenzhen and Guangzhou, thousands of protesters called for a boycott of Japanese goods, a Japanese diplomat said. Smaller, peaceful rallies were held in nearby Dongguan and Zhuhai and in Chengdu in the west.

In Shenyang in the northeast, about 1,000 protesters marched to the Japanese Consulate but were kept away by police. The crowd threw stones but did not break windows, said consulate official Shoji Dai. The protest ended in about 90 minutes, he said.

In Shenzhen, two groups — one with up to 10,000 people — marched past a Japanese-owned Jusco department store calling for a boycott of Japanese goods, said Chiharu Tsuruoka, Japan's vice consul general in Guangzhou.

Another 500 protesters were outside another Jusco branch in Guangzhou, Tsuruoka said.

Earlier Sunday, police tried to block a planned protest in Guangzhou, shooing people away from a stadium where a march was to start. Police stood guard outside Japan's Guangzhou Consulate.

Some have suggested that the Chinese government, which wields tight control over its population, permitted earlier protests to undermine Tokyo's Security Council campaign. Beijing regards Tokyo as a rival for regional dominance and is unlikely to want to give up its status as the only Asian government with a permanent seat and veto power on the Security Council.

But Beijing last week called for calm, apparently afraid of causing more damage to relations with Tokyo or encouraging others to take to the streets to demonstrate against corruption or demand political reforms.

The Communist Party newspaper People's Daily called in a front-page editorial Sunday for the public to "maintain social stability."

It did not mention the protests but said "frictions and problems of various kinds ... can only be settled in an orderly manner by abiding by the law and with a sober mind."

Japan's Trade Minister Shoichi Nakagawa warned the violence would hurt China's reputation and economy. The Chinese Ministry of Commerce says Japan has $47.9 billion invested in China.

"People around the world are wondering whether it's all right to pursue economic activity (in China)," Nakagawa was quoted as saying by Japan's Kyodo News agency.

On Sunday, the Japanese consulate in Shanghai, China's commercial capital, was ringed by hundreds of police, some armed with shields, but there was no sign of new protests. The consulate's walls were splattered blue and black from paint bombs.

Last week, protesters also smashed windows at the Japanese Embassy in Beijing.
 
GT said:
The quotes were from United States Strategic Bombing Survey
Summary Report, Pacific War and if you think that is BS it´s up to you. I think it it obvious who is BS.

Cheers
GT
Click to expand...

That is not the point. The point is that evaluation is post-war. It is BS to try to it as the basis of your argument. A report issued in June of 1946 is irrelevant to the decision making process of Sept/Aug 1945.

Furthermore, that report, especially the claim that even without the A-bombs Japan would have surrendered by the end of 1945, and probably two months earlier, is nothing more than opinion and speculation. If I recall correctly (its been a while since I read that report), it is based upon the belief that the Supreme War council, which was split 50/50 on the issue of accepting unconditional surrender, had the power to negotiate a peace. There was no guarantee the Japanese military, who only regaurded the War council as an advisory body, would accept even a reasonably generous (for the Japanese) conditional surrender, and it is quite unlikely they would accept an unconditional one.

Another little peice of history to consider. In early Oct. 1945 a viscious Typhoon ("Louise") hit the W. Pacific and specifically Okinawa. Losses were significant, consisting of "A total of 12 ships were sunk, 222 grounded, and 32 damaged beyond the ability of ships' companies to repair" (link).

Lets suppose the USA had not dropped the A-bombs, forcing the Japanese surrender in mid August in the hopes the Japanese might surrender on Nov. 1st. The US fleet would have still been present at Okinawa, and typhoon Louise would have easily done at least 10 times the damage it did. And the aircraft based on Okinawa would have been a total loss. The Japanese would have seen this as a "sign from heaven", and the war would not have ended. US plans for an invasion in mid November would have been scrapped.

End result: Japan would be a Soviet puppet state even today! So would Manchuria and Korea.

Your 20/20 hindsight fails to account for any number of unpredictablilties which might have resulted in disaster for the USA, and inevitably for Japan as well.

=S=

Lunatic
 

It is going to be interesting to see how this one pans out, I just hope to be out of the army before anything bad happens.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)

Similar threads

A
  • Locked
2nd hand Boeing for Air Force One?
2
Replies
25
Views
4K
Marcel
B
on and on
Replies
5
Views
3K
Shinpachi
B
move-on-5
Replies
0
Views
5K
blobs
B
B
move-on-4
Replies
6
Views
3K
blobs
B
B
move on +3
Replies
1
Views
2K
blobs
B
Menu
Log in
Register