Most Dangerous Position on a Bomber....?

[Erich]

this is a crap picture but look at the right stabilizer as it is hit with a high explosive round. The tail position has already been hit and it appears the German pilot is going to attack from the right rear of the bomber but he does not, in other sequences he pulls the FW 190 to the left and rakes the left side of the fuselgae and left inner engine before banking off.....

 

[MP-Willow]

Nice pics but it is a painnfull site to see the B-24 all shot up like this.

As for the TBM, ok the radioman was bad, thinking that he was sitting in the middle more chance to be hit from frount and back. Also they had to fly so low and slow and just pray for top fighter cover.

 

[Erich]

MP yeah it is pretty dreadful I have another 30 sec's of cine film showing a rear attack on a B-24 all silver, and the Fw 190 literally tears this B-24 to shreds, with the left engines literally come off the wing due to the HE rounds. Gross and graphic, those bomber boys did not have a chance

 

[Lightning Guy]

There is the fairly common footage of a B-17 getting chewed up that turns my stomach because you can plainly see that the tail isn't firing and the ball isn't even moving.

 

[MP-Willow]

That is why I must respect all the men who flew on those missions It did get a little or a lot better with the new fighters P-47D, but still all that flack

 

[Erich]

MP it was a terrbile year of summer through winter 1944 to February 1945 with the three heavy Fw 190 gruppen. I've got quite a few first person accts from US and German vets and simply you just did not want to be part of a posstion on a 4 engine bomber when coming under a Luftwaffe single engine fighter attack. nearly all combats took place from the rear and if possible to the Germans, out of the sun. It proved still on several occassions with the numerical superiortiy of the Allied escorts that even they could not be everywhere at once. The 445th bg lost 30 B-24's out of 38 on a raid to Kassel on 27 September 1944. The Fw 190 gruppen came in from the rear and tore the B-24 unit up when they made a wrong turn. IV.Stum/JG 3 made the first attack and shot down over 17 B-24's and went through the formation so fast they were not fully detected and lost no Fw's. within 1 minute JG 4 and JG 300's Fw 190's came through and finished the lot and only during the last 1 minute or so did the P-51's of the 361st fg (yellow jackets) save the day from total annihilation. the P-51's claimed 18 Fw 190's and Bf 109G-6's from I./JG 300, II.Sturm/JG 4 and II.Sturm/JG 300.

Personally I will take the seat of a fighter pilot any day........

have some of the suriving crewmen accts and they are filled with terrible memories....

 

[Erich]

one of a sad sequence as a B-24 lib gets creamed by a Sturm Fw 190

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

There is the fairly common footage of a B-17 getting chewed up

you notise there's comparitvly little of the lanc in the same situation.............

 

[Lightning Guy]

No, just a lot of Lancs taking Shrage Musik through a fuel tank and exploding . . .

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but still, there's little footage of it 8)................

 

[cheddar cheese]

where have you got that idea from when he said:...

No, just a lot

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

he said they take lots of Shrage Musik through a fuel tank and exploding, i said there's little footage of it......................

 

[plan_D]

That's because that was happening at night.

 

[Erich]

am not sure of any occassion where the German night fighter crews took a camera in hand on any mission throughout the war. All you have is first hand accts. of RAF crewmen in other RAF bombers viewing a Lanc or Halibag getting vaporized in the ensuing explosion.

there of course Mossie cine films of GErman nf's getting hammered.

also realize the few raids during the day by Lanc forces. don't worry there are some but very little German day time fighter camera cines of Lancs getting blasted............does that make you feel better ?

E ♪

 

[MP-Willow]

Lanks going down, yes spread the pain Erich thanks for your help. I was reading about the P-51 and some say that the two major detractants of it were the lack of cannon and that it could not take a lot of hits. What are your's and other's thoughts?

As for being in a fighter you might be safe for a while
The bombers did take a tarrible price for what they did.

 

[Maestro]

Lanks going down, yes spread the pain Erich thanks for your help. I was reading about the P-51 and some say that the two major detractants of it were the lack of cannon and that it could not take a lot of hits. What are your's and other's thoughts?

As for being in a fighter you might be safe for a while
The bombers did take a tarrible price for what they did.

Just something you forgot (or may be you didn't know) about the P-51 that I want to point out...

The lack of cannons of the P-51 was corrected by the RAF... they added 20 mm cannons to the P-51B and called it the "Mustang III".

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

German night fighter crews took a camera in hand on any mission throughout the war

didn't germans have cameras in the nose sincronised witht the guns??

 

[Lightning Guy]

I don't think the absence of cannon hurt the Mustang very much. The Browning .50cal compared very well to the cannons available (better rate of fire plus equal or better muzzle velocity and range). The API ammo was very effective against the German fighters. Also, the lighter ammo allowed a considerable higher amount of ammo to be carried (which is important for an escort fighter). All it all, the .50 cal worked perfectly fine.

As for durability, the P-51 itself was fairly rugged like most Western designs. It carried adequate pilot armor and self-sealing fuel tanks. The only true weak point was the coolant system but that was a common weakness to nearly all liquid-cooled engines.

 

[Erich]

because the 109 and 190 in late 43-44 were used as bomber killers the addition of heavier or more of cannon were placed on these tired machines. the P-47 and P-51's could easily blow any German a/c away with their .50's before the German a/c could get in range with their 2cm and 3cm weapons.

this was of primary reason the development of air to air rockets was established in the spring of 1943 on the 109/190 and then later on the Bf 110G-2 so these a/c could lob these rocket rounds amongst the US bombers, blow holes in the 'pulk' and then during the chaos close in and shoot up the remaing bombers, some of them crippled. the is was theory anyway. In 1945 of course we have talked about the missile developed for the Me 262A with the same results. fire the missiles out of range of the .50's and then close in for the kill with the 3cm cannons.......

E ♪

 

[Lightning Guy]

So we've established that the .50cal armament was not a liability on the P-51.