Nonskimmer
Captain
Good points there, PD.
Most effective planes of the early war years
- Thread starter Glider
- Start date
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lesofprimus
Brigadier General
But the Spit was produced due to the lackluster performance of the Hurricane, and the eventual threat of combat with the -109....
Otherwise I generally agree with u on everything else u said...
Otherwise I generally agree with u on everything else u said...
The Spitfire was designed to replace older planes, as the Hurricane was. The Spitfire and Hurricane were designed and produced around the same time. In fact the Spitfire was in competition with the Hurricane for a production deal with the MOD.
Supermarine said that the Spitfire would be able to hold it's own against anything during the 40s. I don't know of any contact, if any, with Supermarine and the Bf-109 but I'm sure they got some combat reports from the Spanish Civil War, but I don't know.
Supermarine said that the Spitfire would be able to hold it's own against anything during the 40s. I don't know of any contact, if any, with Supermarine and the Bf-109 but I'm sure they got some combat reports from the Spanish Civil War, but I don't know.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
That I didnt know......
The Zurich Races in 1937 was the showcase for the beginnings of the -109... It broke records like a bull in a China Shop........
Do we have to compare the -109 ONLY to the Spit??? The -109 fought in Spain and Poland and France before the BoB, and owned everything else in the sky.... P.7 and P.11's???
1937-1939..... It was superior to EVERYTHING it flew against.. (before BoB and Spitfires) The Spit never did this.. The Hurricane never did this....
Your post is exactly why I agree that it was the most effective fighter of early war years. I don't agree that it was the benchmark to which the RAF developed the Spitfire because it simply wasn't.
The Spitfire and Bf-109 did meet over France but I know little of their combats. Yes, the Bf-109 did do all that before the Battle of Britain, the Spitfire didn't but you know that the Spitfire could have done all that. It also didn't do all that before the Spitfire, the Spitfire flew in March 1936 before the Spanish Civil War had even got into full swing.
Spitfire against I-16, I-153, Pz.11c...
The Spitfire and Bf-109 did meet over France but I know little of their combats. Yes, the Bf-109 did do all that before the Battle of Britain, the Spitfire didn't but you know that the Spitfire could have done all that. It also didn't do all that before the Spitfire, the Spitfire flew in March 1936 before the Spanish Civil War had even got into full swing.
Spitfire against I-16, I-153, Pz.11c...
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Hmmm....
The first Spitfire proto flew in March 1936, but the first operational Spitfire with 8x .303's reached #19 Squadron RAF at Duxford in August 1938... When war broke out there were 306 MkI's in service... By Sept 1939 there were 11 Squadrons.... Over 10% of the 306 aircraft had been lost to accidents....
The first action for the Spitfire was on Oct 16th 1939, when #602 and 603 engaged Luftwaffe Bombers off of Scotland...
19 Squadrons used Spits by 1940, with a third of these being lost while covering the withdrawl at Dunkirk...
I see now with some research that the Spit really wasnt designed to combat the -109...
The first Spitfire proto flew in March 1936, but the first operational Spitfire with 8x .303's reached #19 Squadron RAF at Duxford in August 1938... When war broke out there were 306 MkI's in service... By Sept 1939 there were 11 Squadrons.... Over 10% of the 306 aircraft had been lost to accidents....
The first action for the Spitfire was on Oct 16th 1939, when #602 and 603 engaged Luftwaffe Bombers off of Scotland...
19 Squadrons used Spits by 1940, with a third of these being lost while covering the withdrawl at Dunkirk...
I see now with some research that the Spit really wasnt designed to combat the -109...
I might be called crazy but I think that few aeroplanes accomplished what the Swordfish did in Taranto early in the war. Except maybe what the Stuka did in Poland. It has to be remembered that the both the Stuka and the Swordfish pilots met up against very light resistance from aircraft though.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
And when they did, it was a quick victory for either fighter pilot...
I agree 100%... The Stuka, as has been stated on the first page, is definatly the winner of this poll for me...
The Stuka gets a lot of credit for the Blitzkrieg, it didn't carry it though. A line from Hitler after viewing a wrecked Polish artillery battery; "Did our Stukas do that?", Guderian replies "No, our panzers"...Hitler was shocked by that reply.
What I'm saying is, for the whole picture, don't just come to the conclusion that the Stuka cut a clear path for the German ground forces to advance.
It certainly was the most effective bomber of the early war years, it says something when Stukas attacked a French artillery battery by the River Meuse, covering Sedan, and they didn't destroy many guns but the fear alone made the artillery gunners never return...or maybe it was just because they were French...
What I'm saying is, for the whole picture, don't just come to the conclusion that the Stuka cut a clear path for the German ground forces to advance.
It certainly was the most effective bomber of the early war years, it says something when Stukas attacked a French artillery battery by the River Meuse, covering Sedan, and they didn't destroy many guns but the fear alone made the artillery gunners never return...or maybe it was just because they were French...
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
No..
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
I agree the Stringbag was easy meat when it was faced with fighters. it on ocassion got lucky out manouvering the enemy but you are quite right guys, although not as effective as the Stuka at dive bombing the Swordfish was suprisingly adept in this roll as well as its many others.
I have not got info of the exact angles of dive but the standard attack was for the pilot to stand on the rudder bar when diving and look over the top wing to see the target so googles and a helmet where vital bits of kit as the pilots bonce was in the slip stream it must have been pretty steep. Pull out was begun at around 500ft. Having said that it must have been the slowest dive bomber in the war as if the airspeed exceeded 200knots there was a distinct possibillity of folding the wings.
I have not got info of the exact angles of dive but the standard attack was for the pilot to stand on the rudder bar when diving and look over the top wing to see the target so googles and a helmet where vital bits of kit as the pilots bonce was in the slip stream it must have been pretty steep. Pull out was begun at around 500ft. Having said that it must have been the slowest dive bomber in the war as if the airspeed exceeded 200knots there was a distinct possibillity of folding the wings.
- Thread starter
- #54
Glider
Captain
As far as I ama ware only a fw PR Spitfires felw in france. The normal fighters didn't.
I am interested on what peoples views are re twin engined fighters.
Three that come to mind are the 110, Fokker G1 and the Potez 63
I am interested on what peoples views are re twin engined fighters.
Three that come to mind are the 110, Fokker G1 and the Potez 63
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
The 110 was rubbish but from what I've read the Fokker wasn't too bad. Neither was the Whirlwind
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Yes Glider, it seems that the Spit was held back from France for security issues... Air Chief Marshall Dowdings reluctance to send them to France probably saved the BoB........ 19 Squadrons instead of 10 woulda been the difference...
- Thread starter
- #57
Glider
Captain
To be honest I thought that the 110 did rather well in France. It was faster than any other fighter, better armed than any other fighter and had a decent range. Granted it came unstuck in the BOB but in France, Poland and Norway it may have been different.
Any views anyone?
Les I like the combat film. He may have got away with it if he hadn't reversed the turn.
Any views anyone?
Les I like the combat film. He may have got away with it if he hadn't reversed the turn.
cheddar cheese
Major General
Stupid RLM...they should have taken on the Fw-187, not the Me-110. The -187 was a much, much better plane.
The RAF lost over half it's strength in the Battle of France. A few Spitfires were sent across the Channel to cover the Dunkirk evacuation but none were ever stationed in France until '44.
Since this thread is up to Dunkirk and most effective we can't count the Spitfire. I've already agreed that the Bf-109 was the most effective fighter up to Dunkirk though.
The Bf-110 did well against Air Forces that had weak aircraft and poor tactics. Once it met the RAF in full force the escort fighter needed it's own escort!
Since this thread is up to Dunkirk and most effective we can't count the Spitfire. I've already agreed that the Bf-109 was the most effective fighter up to Dunkirk though.
The Bf-110 did well against Air Forces that had weak aircraft and poor tactics. Once it met the RAF in full force the escort fighter needed it's own escort!
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Hehe.......
