Most effective planes of the early war years
- Thread starter Glider
- Start date
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trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
Three little things
1. The Bismark was scuttled but was 100% going to be sunk.
So as the crew of the Bismark did not think "I know theres nothing on the horizon lads lets pull the plug to piss off Adolf " but new their fate was sealed , she was a wreak from stem to stern and would have been pounded to little bits she was unquestionably sunk by the British.
2. The lucky shot was probably just that the sighting device used on Stringbags consisted of a bar across the pilots line of sight with a row of lights each light represented 5knts so you find the speed of the target attack from the beam align the target with the correct light eg 20knts from the portside 4th light from the nose on the left hand side release your torp at 500-1000yards and bingo a hit however it was not that accurat that you could hit a ships stern on purpose. that said once she had been found lucky hit or not it was only a matter of time before her destruction.
3. (back on thread) I like Gliders list but I think id have the BF109 rather than the DE520 the 109 demonstrated it's abilitys right across europe and beyond where as the 520 had a very short span of combat operations before being excluded from the scene it was indeed a good plane but in my opinion did not operate long enough to show it's superiority over the 109
1. The Bismark was scuttled but was 100% going to be sunk.
So as the crew of the Bismark did not think "I know theres nothing on the horizon lads lets pull the plug to piss off Adolf " but new their fate was sealed , she was a wreak from stem to stern and would have been pounded to little bits she was unquestionably sunk by the British.
2. The lucky shot was probably just that the sighting device used on Stringbags consisted of a bar across the pilots line of sight with a row of lights each light represented 5knts so you find the speed of the target attack from the beam align the target with the correct light eg 20knts from the portside 4th light from the nose on the left hand side release your torp at 500-1000yards and bingo a hit however it was not that accurat that you could hit a ships stern on purpose. that said once she had been found lucky hit or not it was only a matter of time before her destruction.
3. (back on thread) I like Gliders list but I think id have the BF109 rather than the DE520 the 109 demonstrated it's abilitys right across europe and beyond where as the 520 had a very short span of combat operations before being excluded from the scene it was indeed a good plane but in my opinion did not operate long enough to show it's superiority over the 109
cheddar cheese
Major General
ROFLMFAO 
It may have been a fine plane but it did not do much. For what its worth though it did fair quite well when it was used.
Comparison of the Dewoitine D.520 and the Bf-109E
Dewoitine D.520C.1
Description
Role Day fighter
Crew one, pilot
Dimensions
Length 28 ft 8 in (8.7 m)
Wingspan 33 ft 6 in (10.2 m)
Height 8 ft 5 in (2.6 m)
Wing area 172 ft² (16 m²)
Weights
Empty 4,608 lb (2,090 kg)
Maximum take-off 6,129 lb (2,780 kg)
Powerplant
Engines Hispano-Suiza 12Y-45
Power 930 hp (690 kW)
Performance
Maximum speed 329 mph (529 km/h)
Combat range
Ferry range 777 mile (1,250 km)
Service ceiling
Armament
Guns 1x 20 mm cannon
4x 7.5 mm machine guns
Bombs
Messerschmitt Bf-109E
Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke
Engine:
Model: Daimler-Benz 601Aa
Type: Liquid Cooled Inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 1,150hp
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 4.5 in.
Length: 28 ft. 8 in.
Height: 8 ft. 10 in.
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights:
Empty: 4,440 lb.
Maximum, Loaded: 5,520 lb.
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 357 mph at 12,300 ft.
Maximum Climb: 3,100 feet per minute
Range: 412 Miles
Service Ceiling: 36,000 ft.
Armament:
Two 20mm MG/FF mounted in the wings with 60 rounds per gun
And
Two 7.9mm MG 17 mounted above engine with 1,000 rounds per gun
In all actuallity the Bf-109 is still superior to the D.520. It is more superior in performance, engine rating, and armament. The only thing the D.520 had going for it was the range being superior to the the 109.
Still all in all I will agree that the 520 was underated.
Comparison of the Dewoitine D.520 and the Bf-109E
Dewoitine D.520C.1
Description
Role Day fighter
Crew one, pilot
Dimensions
Length 28 ft 8 in (8.7 m)
Wingspan 33 ft 6 in (10.2 m)
Height 8 ft 5 in (2.6 m)
Wing area 172 ft² (16 m²)
Weights
Empty 4,608 lb (2,090 kg)
Maximum take-off 6,129 lb (2,780 kg)
Powerplant
Engines Hispano-Suiza 12Y-45
Power 930 hp (690 kW)
Performance
Maximum speed 329 mph (529 km/h)
Combat range
Ferry range 777 mile (1,250 km)
Service ceiling
Armament
Guns 1x 20 mm cannon
4x 7.5 mm machine guns
Bombs
Messerschmitt Bf-109E
Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke
Engine:
Model: Daimler-Benz 601Aa
Type: Liquid Cooled Inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 1,150hp
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 4.5 in.
Length: 28 ft. 8 in.
Height: 8 ft. 10 in.
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights:
Empty: 4,440 lb.
Maximum, Loaded: 5,520 lb.
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 357 mph at 12,300 ft.
Maximum Climb: 3,100 feet per minute
Range: 412 Miles
Service Ceiling: 36,000 ft.
Armament:
Two 20mm MG/FF mounted in the wings with 60 rounds per gun
And
Two 7.9mm MG 17 mounted above engine with 1,000 rounds per gun
In all actuallity the Bf-109 is still superior to the D.520. It is more superior in performance, engine rating, and armament. The only thing the D.520 had going for it was the range being superior to the the 109.
Still all in all I will agree that the 520 was underated.
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
Thats cruel Fly funny but cruel
but cruel
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
trackend said:Thats cruel Fly funny
trackend said:
Very true. She was going to go down. She was a wreck! I think it was more of a "Lets not let the Brits have her".
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Umm, don´t be too sure in this.
Because I believe it is not that far off topic (since the actions, originated in the Swordfish launched fluke hit lead to the complete removal of Atlantic surface operations and therefore were in anyway highly effective for the curse of war) we should discuss it.
I know, I am going to be misunderstand but I should tell a little about it:
A survivor of Bismarck, whom I had the opportunity to ask,
told me that the Zitadelle (e.g. the protection system) of the ship was intact in the time he left the ship. This is confirmed by almost all books, I read. The ship was in no seaworthy condition, but it wouldn´t have been sunken by the RN actions. Fact is that the KGV and Rodney as well as several cruisers wrecked the upper parts of the ship by firing from almost point blanc range. The ship was on fire and silenced. In this way, it can be said that the ship was no more an active combat unit. However, it wasn´t an effective combat unit prior to this because the rudder controll was out of action and therefore, the ship had no controll of the course (it proved to be difficult to hit anything if the ship changes continously direction). But it was scuttled by it´s own crews initiative (beside of what some germans might say mostly because they wanted to leave the ship in order to survive). Even additional torpedo hits wouldn´t have a big chance to sink her. Repaeted hits could do so (around 45 torpedos have been fired on the Scharnhorst, no less than 12 hit the ship, same torpedo protection system).
Excaminations of the wreckage confirmed this. In order to sink the ship at least 12 of 24 protected, watertight compartments must be filled with water. Actually only 1 took water at the moment the ship was abandoned.
The extensive gun bombardment from close range could pierce the heavy 320 mm KC main belt but not the sloped, 100 mm Wh armor behind it. Even a Yamato class gun would have almost no probability to do so ( except from direct 90 degrees impact at below 2000 ft. distance). The torpedo protection system would ensure protection against torpedoes up to 60 cm warhead class except for bow and stern hits or flukes.
Because I believe it is not that far off topic (since the actions, originated in the Swordfish launched fluke hit lead to the complete removal of Atlantic surface operations and therefore were in anyway highly effective for the curse of war) we should discuss it.
I know, I am going to be misunderstand but I should tell a little about it:
A survivor of Bismarck, whom I had the opportunity to ask,
told me that the Zitadelle (e.g. the protection system) of the ship was intact in the time he left the ship. This is confirmed by almost all books, I read. The ship was in no seaworthy condition, but it wouldn´t have been sunken by the RN actions. Fact is that the KGV and Rodney as well as several cruisers wrecked the upper parts of the ship by firing from almost point blanc range. The ship was on fire and silenced. In this way, it can be said that the ship was no more an active combat unit. However, it wasn´t an effective combat unit prior to this because the rudder controll was out of action and therefore, the ship had no controll of the course (it proved to be difficult to hit anything if the ship changes continously direction). But it was scuttled by it´s own crews initiative (beside of what some germans might say mostly because they wanted to leave the ship in order to survive). Even additional torpedo hits wouldn´t have a big chance to sink her. Repaeted hits could do so (around 45 torpedos have been fired on the Scharnhorst, no less than 12 hit the ship, same torpedo protection system).
Excaminations of the wreckage confirmed this. In order to sink the ship at least 12 of 24 protected, watertight compartments must be filled with water. Actually only 1 took water at the moment the ship was abandoned.
The extensive gun bombardment from close range could pierce the heavy 320 mm KC main belt but not the sloped, 100 mm Wh armor behind it. Even a Yamato class gun would have almost no probability to do so ( except from direct 90 degrees impact at below 2000 ft. distance). The torpedo protection system would ensure protection against torpedoes up to 60 cm warhead class except for bow and stern hits or flukes.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
AGREE! EVERYBODY SING! \
/ Sink The Bismark
Johnny Horton
In May of l941 the war had just begun
The Germans had the biggest ship, they had the biggest guns
The Bismark was the fastest ship that ever sailed the sea
On her deck were guns as big as steers, and shells as big as trees.
Out of the cold and foggy night came the British ship, the Hood
And every British seaman, he knew and understood
They had to sink the Bismark, the terror of the sea,
Stop those guns as big as steers and those shells as big as trees.
We'll find that German battleship that's making such a fuss,
We gotta sink the Bismark cause the world depends on us. We'll hit the decks a-runnin' boys and spin those guns around
Yeah, and when we find the Bismark we gotta cut her down!
The Hood found the Bismark, and on that fatal day
The Bismark started firing fifteen miles away
"We gotta sink the Bismark!" was the battle sound
But when the smoke had cleared away, the Mighty Hood went down.
For six long days and weary nights they tried to find her trail.
Churchill told the people, "Put every ship asail,
For somewhere on that ocean, I know she's gotta be
We gotta sink the Bismark to the bottom of the sea!"
We'll find that German battleship that's making such a fuss
We gotta sink the Bismark cause the world depends on us
We'll hit the deck a-runnin' boys and spin those guns around
And when we find the Bismark we gotta cut her down.
The fog was gone the seventh day, and they saw the morning sun.
Ten hours away from homeland the Bismark made its run.
The admiral of the British fleet said, "turn those bows around,
We found that German Battleship and we're gonna cut her down!"
The British guns were aimed and the shells were coming fast,
The first shell hit the Bismark, they knew she couldn't last
That mighty German battleship is just a memory.
"SINK THE BISMARK!" was the battle cry that shook the seven seas!
We found that German battleship that was making such a fuss.
We had to sink the Bismark cause the world depends on us.
We hit the deck a-runnin' and we spun those guns around, yeah, and when we found the Bismark, we hadda cut her down!
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
Very yohoho FBJ i hoped you all joined in
Delcros I think you,re talking through your scuttles.
It interrupted operations for how many days?
There has never been and will never be an unsinkable ship.
If the RN had sailed up 500 yards away and pumped all the main armament of two battleships broadside after broadside into it I can assure you irrespective of what protection systems the Bismark had, it would have sunk as it was before this was completed the crew scuttled her. To intimate that it was unsinkable and could only be sunk by scuttling. Not really sensible is it. be fair Del.
Excluding even that supposing the RN had left it afloat what would have happened.
The Kreigsmarine nip out with a couple of tugs get her in tow and take her back for a quick whiz over with a tin of Hammerite or Dulux non drip.?
"Mother put on the kettle I have a Headache" . YE GODS!!!
Delcros I think you,re talking through your scuttles.
It interrupted operations for how many days?
There has never been and will never be an unsinkable ship.
If the RN had sailed up 500 yards away and pumped all the main armament of two battleships broadside after broadside into it I can assure you irrespective of what protection systems the Bismark had, it would have sunk as it was before this was completed the crew scuttled her. To intimate that it was unsinkable and could only be sunk by scuttling. Not really sensible is it. be fair Del.
Excluding even that supposing the RN had left it afloat what would have happened.
The Kreigsmarine nip out with a couple of tugs get her in tow and take her back for a quick whiz over with a tin of Hammerite or Dulux non drip.?
"Mother put on the kettle I have a Headache" . YE GODS!!!
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
No, trackend, I wouldn´t go so far and say that the Bismarck was unsinkable. This wouldn´t be true. In fact, the Bismarcks protection system is sensitive against hits from high angles at greater distances ( in this way, it was more sensitive than the contemporary Roma or KGV-class). It´s protection system was optimized for close distances , just the game, the RN played with her. Under no circumstances a 16 inch or 14 inch grenade from even 50 yards could send her down to the bottom of the ocean.
This is confirmed by Nathan Okun´s excellent comprehensive analysis of the Bismarcks protection system.
The Rodney would have a pretty chance to blew up the Bismarck if it can hit the boiler rooms from 24.000 yards or the magazines from 26.500 yards and more distance.
The Swordfishs did a great job. They knocked out parts of the ship which had not it´s otherwise good topredo protection (the rudder controll at the stern).
This is confirmed by Nathan Okun´s excellent comprehensive analysis of the Bismarcks protection system.
The Rodney would have a pretty chance to blew up the Bismarck if it can hit the boiler rooms from 24.000 yards or the magazines from 26.500 yards and more distance.
The Swordfishs did a great job. They knocked out parts of the ship which had not it´s otherwise good topredo protection (the rudder controll at the stern).
Nonskimmer
Captain
Interesting discussion, boys.
And FBJ, that mag cover is funny as hell!
And FBJ, that mag cover is funny as hell!
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
Del you are in dia need of a humour transplant take two of these \/ three times a day if things dont improve come and see me next week
/ three times a day if things dont improve come and see me next week
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Nonskimmer said:And FBJ, that mag cover is funny as hell!
marseille jr
Airman
- 52
- Mar 28, 2005
I am glad to see my reference to the D520 enjoys some approval.
Yeah, but there were barely D520's in service by the time Them Germans struck. And the few that were available were flown by pilots who often had only 5 hours flying experience in it. And yet it notched up a favourable kill ratio against the experienced Luftwaffe pilots flying the Emil. It simply was a promising plane that came too few, too late ... and a good looking one too !!!
Yeah, but there were barely D520's in service by the time Them Germans struck. And the few that were available were flown by pilots who often had only 5 hours flying experience in it. And yet it notched up a favourable kill ratio against the experienced Luftwaffe pilots flying the Emil. It simply was a promising plane that came too few, too late ... and a good looking one too !!!
Attachments
marseille jr
Airman
- 52
- Mar 28, 2005
you forgot manoeuvrability in favor of the D 520. And i wouldn't be too sure about the armament. It had only one cannon but it was centered in the middle (cfr emil - friedrich). I also read it could dive well and without locking up the controls too much.
so that leaves us with topspeed (climb?) + engine rating vs range + manoeuvrability. They seem pretty well matched. And still the unexperienced pilots français racked up a favourable kill ratio... it definetely was underrated!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
But as said, "could of been," but agreed, it was a good airplane. Werner Molders was shot down by one I believe.
Chocks away!
Senior Airman
Yep, he was indeed. And the pilot that shot him down was also shot down and killed by another Emil , if i'm not mistaken.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
too few too late!! it was designed in 1936 how much time did they need!!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
the lancaster kicks ass said:
Well it was French
