I think we need another tag up on zoom.
Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?
- Thread starter Lucky13
- Start date
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Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Can't fault your logic there Wes, I think the only college text that I had that wasn't written by the prof was my Art Appreciation class. Yup, that course has stood me in good stead all these years.
drgondog
Major
Thumpalumpacus said:
!) They did not have escorts for deep penetration missions. The 1942 missions over France and Belgium were planned with escort in mind; but Eaker and others reckoned that deeper, unescorted missions attacking Germany proper were viable. This is a fact, as borne out by many dumb missions carried out in 1943.
2) You're not paying attention to the power of dogma. The USAAF bomber generals wanted to show the supremacy of the bombers, in order to justify an independent Air Force post-war. Whether or not escort was available, they tried ... and failed.
You are correct that I took exception to your characterization of Eaker's views and intelligence. He took the responsibility seriously, made constructive comments and criticism regarding the issues posed by Arnold's dissatisfaction - and recommended the solution approaches required to achieve his objectives. He begged for his long range escort to be returned in May, 1943 and specifically begged for both the P-51B and P-38H in July via Robert Lovett Sec'y War - who a.) conveyed the detailed discussions and requests to Arnold from Eaker, and b.) agreed with/supported Eaker in his conversations with Arnold.
The seriousness of escort requirements to carry out Pointblank were communicated in July but it wasn't until September 29th that Arnold finally issued the order that all near term deployments of P-38 and P51B be made to ETO. The 'dumb missions' carried out in 1943 were the only alternative to a.) standing down on Operation POINTBLANK (UNACCEPTABLE to Churchill, Portal, Roosevelt, Marshall, Eisenhower, Arnold, Spaatz) or b.) 'soldiering on as ordered'.
You may note from the Allied leadership references cited that far MORE leadership was invested in the success of both night attacks and daylight strategic bombing and the Combined Bomber Offensive than 'USAAF bomber generals'. The belief was held and maintained that the destruction of the Luftwaffe was essential to the success of OVERLORD. That wasn't going to happen by continuing to bomb coastal Europe... so 'dumb' unescorted missions to attack LW infrastructure continued until ETO weather prevailed in Fall/Winter of 1943.
If your curiosity extends to fact finding, you may note that the first operational escort mission of the 'new wave' of long range escort FG's (55th) was October 15th - a date that may or may not be of interest to you. It wasn't until December that both the 20th FG (P-38H) and 354th (P-51B went operational. How many months after Eaker begged for them?
EDIT - life is too short to get our panties in a wad over this.
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Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Yeah, that's me...
Spruce buds are out! It's time to brew up a batch of Spruce Flavored Lager. Next month will be just about right for Light Gingered Ale.Yeah, that's me...
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Yowza and Hubba Hubba... Count me in!
drgondog
Major
Only Geezers remember Yowsa and hubba Hubba. Can there be a Zoot Suit Sighting far behind?
The P-39 was an excellent airplane within the altitude range it's single stage Allison allowed, so low to medium. The turbocharger it was supposed to have would have transformed it. The P-38 with the Allison with the turbo was a fully capable sirplane. A bad decision by the AAF. It's that simple.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Depends on what you're fighting against, and how much ammo you've expended, I think.
I still think its limited range, and limited climb, made for a limited airplane. Within its limits, and in the hands of a good pilot, of course it was dangerous.
Shortround6
Major General
Not so simple.
The early turbo charged airplanes had a lot of operational problems, the turbo controllers didn't work well.
The P-38 used a low/no drag intercooler in the early versions, From about the F on it was too small for the engines.
Bell had made a total hash of
1. the liquid cooling system for the engine,
2. the oil cooling system for the engine.
3. the intercooler system for the turbo.
Getting rid of the turbo solved #3 right of the bat..
Moving the coolant radiators and ducts to the position the turbo used to be in solved #1
The oil coolers were moved into flanking positions to the coolant radiator which would not have been possible had the turbo stayed.
They built about 207 P-38s in 1941 and over 900 P-39s. Very few of the P-38s were considered combat capable at the time and none were considered combat capable after they started building the P-38F.
Choice was hundreds of not so good P-39s in late 1941/early 1942 or a lot fewer P-39s with turbos that performed good on paper but would have maintenance issues and be significantly slower under 20,000ft than the P-39s they did get.
The AAF had 13 P-37s and a few other experimental turbo powered aircraft that convinced them that the turbo was about a year further out than the single/two speed mechanical supercharged engines for service squadron use.
wuzak
Captain
The YP-37s, and the XP-37 before them, convinced Curtiss and the USAAF that the way forward was the P-40.
Shortround6
Major General
At least in the short term. The USAAC still wanted turbo aircraft, they just understood that they needed something in meantime to make up numbers.
The P-39 and P-40 were those interim aircraft.
The P-39 and P-40 were those interim aircraft.
What,...isn't this the Ancient Geezers' Retirement Home?? Am I in the wrong place? Did I come in the wrong door? That sweet young thing said it was third door on the right! Or was it fourth?? Hmmm...Must have been. Sorry for the bother, chaps. Ta ta! Been real.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
At least you (think you) know where it is! Been looking all over for mine. I'm sure I've seen it in the last decade somewhere. But where?
drgondog
Major
Excellent relative to ? A6M, Bf 109F/G, Fw 190A, P-40, P-51, Spitfire V, VIII, IX or I-16 and Buffalo? As noted earlier the XP-39 was AWFUL and program nearly cancelled until NACA made bout a dozen critical cooling and aerodynamic changes to bring it to 'functional'.
It was specified to be the 'small solution' according to Ben Kelsey - in comparison to the XP-38. It was REQUIRED as a high altitude interceptor - which was the reason for a flawed M-4 37mm auto cannon. The Brits flew one operational sortie and quietly shipped them off. Both the 31st and 52nd FG's, originally equipped with P-39, quickly replaced them with Spitfires in the MTO. The poor bastards that were stuck with P-39 in MTO were relegated to convoy escort and CAS.
Exactly one US pilot scored 5 victory credits in the P-39 in a target rich environment in SWP.
The only 'bad' decision made by AAF relative to the P-39 was to Not immediately buy the XP-51 in 1941 to replace the P-39 for all 1943 usage in AAF.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Of course I know where it is, what a silly thing to say, it's right in the ah... in the ah... over by the...
Hmm...
