Hello, so it seems. Some 10 - 15 years ago I took photos amongst others of aircraft papers of combat a/cs of the FiAF used in 1939 - 45 but even if amongst them were 5 Hawks (3 A-4s, one A-2 and one A-3) none of them was A-6. Yes, I also looked Stenman et al Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia 5 and my notes, and noticed that 3 of the 5 highest scoring Hawks were originally A-6s
Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?
- Thread starter Lucky13
- Start date
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Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
You use the word "originally". I suppose that the various models became more standardized as time wore on and things like engines, guns, armor and fuel protection were refitted. The conversion of the -4s to P&W engines being the most obvious.
Yes, that is my understanding, from a/c papers I have
CU-575 June 1943 6 7.5 mm Brownings. December 1943 two 12.7 mm Colts and 4 probably 7.7 mm Browning but could also be 7.5 mm, I have only the synchronization protocol on that date.
CU-552 at the end of the war six mgs, no info which, but probably all the same calibre (only info on their construction numbers)
CU-505 June & July 1941 6 7.5 mm Brownings. May 1943 1 12.7 mm Colt and 4 7.7 mm Brownings, same at the end of the war
CU-503 May 1942 7.5 mm Brownings changed to 7.7 mm Brownings. July 1944 two 12.7 mm Colts two 7.7 mm Brownings
CU-502 August 1943 two 12.7 mm Colts four 7.7 mm Brownings
CU-575 June 1943 6 7.5 mm Brownings. December 1943 two 12.7 mm Colts and 4 probably 7.7 mm Browning but could also be 7.5 mm, I have only the synchronization protocol on that date.
CU-552 at the end of the war six mgs, no info which, but probably all the same calibre (only info on their construction numbers)
CU-505 June & July 1941 6 7.5 mm Brownings. May 1943 1 12.7 mm Colt and 4 7.7 mm Brownings, same at the end of the war
CU-503 May 1942 7.5 mm Brownings changed to 7.7 mm Brownings. July 1944 two 12.7 mm Colts two 7.7 mm Brownings
CU-502 August 1943 two 12.7 mm Colts four 7.7 mm Brownings
Conslaw
Senior Airman
I know these F4F-7s were sent on recon missions in the South Pacific, but I've never read any recounts of any of those missions. I would find such recounts very interesting - even if "uneventful", just knowing the timing and difficulties of a routine mission.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
I still say the most overrated was the P-47. Very average rate of climb, poor maneuverability and certainly not enough range when introduced. In combat by April 1943 with no provision for drop tanks until August and then relegated to ground attack by January '44 when command decided all P-51s should go to the 8th AF and all P-47s should be transferred to the 9th AF (tactical). And yet over 15000 produced.
Shortround6
Major General
Oh, Jeeez, another ground hog thread.
In Jan 1944 they planned for the P-51s to go to the go to the 8th AF and all P-47s should be transferred to the 9th AF (tactical). It just takes a lot of time.
Just before Big week at the end of Feb 1944 the 8th air force had two fighter groups of P-51s, two of P-38s and eight fighter groups of P-47s.
The 78th fighter group in the 8th Air Force using P-47s gets it's last victory (of 400 claims) on Dec 31st 1944 before converting fully to the P-51. And it is the not last fighter group in the 8th to use the P-47.
But this will make no difference I am sure.
At what altitude? It had a service ceiling of 42,000 ft with its 8 x 0.5mgs and space to practice break dancing in the back.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
I said that command decided, not that the decision had been implemented.
drgondog
Major
In the MTO, the P-47 fighter groups in12th AF were tasked for CAS and short range interdiction (Rail and Bridges). P-47D FG in 15th were escort. In ETO ALL P-47s in 9th AF were tasked to provide escort through April 1944, and thence the 9th AF P-47s were diverted for cross channel Interdiction preparing for D-Day. In the 8th AF ALL VIII FC were tasked for both CAS/Interdiction and Escort from D-Day through mid August, thence entirely Escort through the end of its service in VIII FC.
Aside from not having your facts in-line with historical facts regarding the variable missions and service, why would you overlook the Essential role if intermediate Penetration and Withdrawal for 8th AF escort over Germany through VE Day? It took 11 months to convert 'nearly all VIII FC P-47 equipped FGs from P-47D to P-51B/C.
Seems to be a recurring theme for a certain person. All that education going to waste.
Groundhoggery has moved on to possessing its own laws of physics and selectively misquoting himself and his own data to score between the recently moved goalposts.Seems to be a recurring theme for a certain person. All that education going to waste.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
At least our resident expert at alternate history and cut-n-paste hasn't posted in a while.
Thank God for small miracles...
Thank God for small miracles...
He knows a lot of stuff, just has a weird way of putting it all together.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Kind of like a can of alphabet soup. The letters are all there but they don't spell anything.
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,354
- Jan 31, 2021
The drop tank issue was very much theater-dependent. While drop tank development was slow in the ETO for various reasons, in the Southwest Pacific theater, under Gen. Kenney's command, drop tank development was much more rapid. A locally-made, 200 U.S. gallon belly drop tank for P-47s in the theater became widely available in the fall of 1943.
I think there was an issue of pressurising them for use at altitude.
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,354
- Jan 31, 2021
My references are packed up at the moment, but if I recall correctly, the Southwest Pacific 200-gallon tank was metal and made by Ford in Australia. A prototype was designed, built, and tested in something like a month, and then put into production.
The ETO initially had the paper 200-gallon ferry tanks, which could not be pressurized, but were partially filled and then dropped after climbing. Later came the 75-gallon metal tanks, then the 108-gallon British-made paper tanks, followed by the 150-gallon metal tanks, and ending with 200-gallon metal tanks, which came into service in the ETO about a year after the ones in the Southwest Pacific.
drgondog
Major
Alas - the boundary conditions in the Pacific were largely very different from ETO. The Ferry tanks (not self sealing) were a.) unpressurized and designed for low to middle altitude transport with low threat, and b.) were useless at greater than 18-20000 feet.
In SW Pacific, fighters often flew long distances across large bodies of water and away from land based interception along the route. Combat tank development started late - resulted from Arnold Fighter Conference in late Jan 1942. Materiel Command was fairly incompetent in getting the program started, takng until July-September to test, qualify and approve production of 75 and 108 gal steel combat tanks.
In ETO, Blitz Week losses forced VIII FC to adopt the 200gal Ferry tank in desperation, but it did extend combat radius 30-50 mi which was significant for Penetration escort while the new 75 gal Combat Tank and pressurization modifications, slaved from engine instrumentation vacuum, enabled the VIII FC to extend another 50 miles.
Shortround6
Major General
For an early "look" at the P-47C-1 see this report. Dec of 1942.
By the summer of 1944 P-47s had been fitted with wide cord propellers and two different levels of water injection.
The 370 gal internal fuel set-up was being delivered also which increased the tactical radius by 100-150 miles.
P-47 may have a had a large turning circle but it could out roll any other American fighter and break contact almost at will.
P-47C Tactical Trials
www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org
By the summer of 1944 P-47s had been fitted with wide cord propellers and two different levels of water injection.
The 370 gal internal fuel set-up was being delivered also which increased the tactical radius by 100-150 miles.
P-47 may have a had a large turning circle but it could out roll any other American fighter and break contact almost at will.
Let's not forget the 56th FG chose to keep their P-47s once the P-51 entered service with the Eighth, which highlights one thing about the P-47, its pilots liked it. A quick look at Wiki (yes, I know...) shows why the P-47 was not overrated.
"Luftwaffe ace Heinz Bär said that the P-47 "could absorb an astounding amount of lead [from shooting at it] and had to be handled very carefully".
When your enemy says this about you, you have their respect.
"Although the North American P-51 Mustang replaced the P-47 in the long-range escort role in Europe, the Thunderbolt still ended the war with 3,752 air-to-air kills claimed in over 746,000 sorties of all types, at the cost of 3,499 P-47s to all causes in combat."
"The P-47 gradually became the USAAF's primary fighter-bomber, by late 1943, early versions of the P-47D carrying 500 lb (230 kg) bombs underneath their bellies, mid-production versions of the P-47D could carry 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs and M8 4.5 in (115 mm) rockets under their wings or from the last version of the P-47D in 1944, 5 in (130 mm) High-velocity aircraft rockets (HVARs, also known as "Holy Moses"). From D-Day until VE day, Thunderbolt pilots claimed to have destroyed 86,000 railroad cars, 9,000 locomotives, 6,000 armored fighting vehicles, and 68,000 trucks. During Operation Cobra, in the vicinity of Roncey, P-47 Thunderbolts of the 405th Fighter group destroyed a German column of 122 tanks, 259 other vehicles, and 11 artillery pieces."
Impressive stats. Says a lot about the utilization of the aircraft, which shows that it certainly wasn't overrated at the time.
