Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?

[buffnut453]

Do I have to?

Yes...or we'll make you stand in the naughty corner. And I don't want big tears at bedtime either. Got it?!?!?!!!

 

[SaparotRob]

Okay.

 

[SaparotRob]

I was about to post a snarky comment when I remembered to check which thread this is. I got a zinger for drgndog had he posted this on the Groundhog thread.

 

[P-39 Expert]

In the MTO, the P-47 fighter groups in12th AF were tasked for CAS and short range interdiction (Rail and Bridges). P-47D FG in 15th were escort. In ETO ALL P-47s in 9th AF were tasked to provide escort through April 1944, and thence the 9th AF P-47s were diverted for cross channel Interdiction preparing for D-Day. In the 8th AF ALL VIII FC were tasked for both CAS/Interdiction and Escort from D-Day through mid August, thence entirely Escort through the end of its service in VIII FC.

Aside from not having your facts in-line with historical facts regarding the variable missions and service, why would you overlook the Essential role if intermediate Penetration and Withdrawal for 8th AF escort over Germany through VE Day? It took 11 months to convert 'nearly all VIII FC P-47 equipped FGs from P-47D to P-51B/C.

My facts were absolutely in line. I said "command DECIDED P-51s should go to the 8th and P-47s should be transferred to the 9th." Straight from AHT. Implementation obviously came later. Command couldn't snap their fingers and make it so immediately, but they did know that the P-47's range was inadequate for the job at hand. And it really didn't matter that the P-47s provided escort through April '44, their range was still way too short. P-47s did get more fuel and wider propeller blades, but only after air superiority had been won over Europe. When the AAF needed them most in 1943, P-47s were inadequate.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Most definitely Not Egon Meyer - who was busy about 100 mi from the Johnson shoot up.

Other authors have expressed doubt about Mayer's alleged encounter with Johnson. There is no direct evidence Mayer was involved in this battle. No III./JG 2 pilot is present on victory or loss records according to the most complete German sources.

Robert Johnson vs Egon Mayer-Urban myth? [Archive] - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

[Archive] Robert Johnson vs Egon Mayer-Urban myth? Allied and Soviet Air Forces

forum.12oclockhigh.net

I appreciate both these corrections. Is there any suggestion who the German pilot might be?

Edit: I used to own Caldwell's book on JG26, maybe that's where I got the idea?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Are you sure it was better than the P-39?

Not according to someone's "Alternative Facts".

 

[pbehn]

My facts were absolutely in line. I said "command DECIDED P-51s should go to the 8th and P-47s should be transferred to the 9th." Straight from AHT. Implementation obviously came later. Command couldn't snap their fingers and make it so immediately, but they did know that the P-47's range was inadequate for the job at hand. And it really didn't matter that the P-47s provided escort through April '44, their range was still way too short. P-47s did get more fuel and wider propeller blades, but only after air superiority had been won over Europe. When the AAF needed them most in 1943, P-47s were inadequate.

Something's range only becomes inadequate when you have something with longer range, until that time your plans are on hold. B-17s were escorted by Spitfires until P-47s became available which meant both being used, then P-38s came and then P-51s. Until you have enough P-51s you have to use P-47s to take the bombers in and out with P51s doing the longest legs.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Something's range only becomes inadequate when you have something with longer range, until that time your plans are on hold. B-27s were escorted by Spitfires until P-47s became available which meant both being used, then P-38s came and then P-51s. Until you have enough P-51s you have to use P-47s to take the bombers in and out with P51s doing the longest legs.

Oooh B-27's. Was that a twin boom, inline engine variant of the B-17?

 

[pbehn]

Oooh B-27's. Was that a twin boom, inline engine variant of the B-17?

That will teach me not to type in the dark

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Or did they copy stolen Me 210 dachshund technology to shift CG and install it in the B-17 and call it the B-27?

 

[GrauGeist]

Maybe a B-24 with a B-17's nose?

 

[Milosh]

I appreciate both these corrections. Is there any suggestion who the German pilot might be?

Edit: I used to own Caldwell's book on JG26, maybe that's where I got the idea?

From the link,
It is also possible that Fw. Wilhelm Mayer shot up Johnson's Thunderbolt as he filed a claim for a P-47 at 1900 20-30 km NW of Dieppe.

 

[33k in the air]

That would have been for a ferry mission, they typically carried a single centerline tank when escorting.

Doesn't appear to be a ferry mission according to the caption. Here's a link to the photo in question: 56th FG P-47

I do recall Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual makes reference to the P-47 being able to carry a 150-gallon 'flat' tank under each wing if necessary, but that such a set-up made handling difficult and thus was not used often.

 

[33k in the air]

My facts were absolutely in line. I said "command DECIDED P-51s should go to the 8th and P-47s should be transferred to the 9th." Straight from AHT. Implementation obviously came later. Command couldn't snap their fingers and make it so immediately, but they did know that the P-47's range was inadequate for the job at hand. And it really didn't matter that the P-47s provided escort through April '44, their range was still way too short. P-47s did get more fuel and wider propeller blades, but only after air superiority had been won over Europe. When the AAF needed them most in 1943, P-47s were inadequate.

Fighter escort allocation for the 6 March 1944 mission to Berlin (the 8th Air Force's first full scale daylight raid on the city). Figures are in parentheses are the number of aircraft which penetrated enemy airspace.

1st Bomb Division

Penetration support
53 (51) P-47s of the 359th FG (made rendezvous with bombers near Dutch coast)
49 (45) P-47s of the 358th FG (9th AF) (made rendezvous with bombers near Dutch coast)
35 (32) P-47s of the 56th FG (made rendezvous with bombers near Lingen)
36 (36) P-47s of the 78th FG (made rendezvous with bombers near Dummer Lake)

Target support
35 (25) P-51s of the 4th FG (made rendezvous with bombers northeast of Brunswick)
47 (31) P-38s of the 55th FG (failed to rendezvous with bombers)

Withdrawal support
47 (32) P-47s of the 355th FG (made rendezvous with bombers northwest of Hanover)
39 (37) P-47s of the 361st FG (made rendezvous with bombers near German border)
9 (8) P-51s of the 361st FG (made rendezvous with bombers near German border)

3rd Bomb Division

Penetration support
16 (16) P-47s of the 365th FG (9th AF) (made rendezvous with bombers near Dutch coast)
34 (31) P-47s of the 353rd FG (made rendezvous with bombers near Dummer Lake)

Target support
45 (34) P-51s of the 354th FG (9th AF) (made rendezvous with bombers near Magdeburg)
30 (23) P-38s of the 20th FG (made rendezvous with bombers northwest of Berlin)

Withdrawal support
32 (32) P-47s of the 78th FG (failed to rendezvous with bombers)
48 (47) P-47s of the 352nd FG (made rendezvous with bombers near Dummer Lake)

2nd Bomb Division

Penetration support
50 (50) P-47s of the 362nd FG (9th AF) (made rendezvous with bombers over Zuider Zee)
35 (34) P-47s of the 56th FG (made rendezvous with bombers near Meppel)

Target support
48 (33) P-51s of the 357th FG (made rendezvous with bombers northeast of Magdeburg)

Withdrawal support
39 (32) P-38s of the 364th FG (made rendezvous with bombers northwest of Berlin)
49 (42) P-47s of the 356th FG (made rendezvous with bombers northwest of Hanover)

General Withdrawal Support

48 (44) P-47s of the 359th FG (second sortie of day) (made rendezvous with bombers Dummer Lake)
49 (49) P-47s of the 358th FG (9th AF) (second sortie of day) (made rendezvous with bombers east of Zuider Zee)
43 (42) P-47s of the 362nd FG (9th AF) (second sortie of day) (made rendezvous with bombers over Zuider Zee)
27 (26) Mustangs of Nos 19, 65, and 122 Squadrons (RAF) (made rendezvous with bombers north of Hanover)

From Target Berlin by Jeffrey Ethell and Alfred Price, p. 167-170


The number of serviceable aircraft in the 8th Air Force on the evening of March 5, 1944 (p. 10 of same source):

777 B-17s
305 B-24s
130 P-38s
415 P-47s
109 P-51s

Operational radius distances as given on pages 11-12 of same source:

475 miles = P-47 with two 108-gallon drop tanks*
400 miles = P-47 with one 108-gallon drop tank
600 miles = P-38 with two 165-gallon drop tanks
650 miles = P-51 with two 75-gallon drop tanks

* Few P-47s had been modified at this time with the necessary plumbing.

 

[Shortround6]

Obviously those 109 P-51s had won air superiority over Europe allowing those 415 P-47s to survive.

 

[Shortround6]

And it really didn't matter that the P-47s provided escort through April '44, their range was still way too short. P-47s did get more fuel and wider propeller blades, but only after air superiority had been won over Europe. When the AAF needed them most in 1943, P-47s were inadequate.

It might help of you actually read a bit more.
The P-47s were getting the wider prop blades starting in Dec of 1943. Likewise the early water injection kits were being fitted from Nov on, most P-47s having gotten the water injection by the end of 1943, but hey, by end of Dec 1943/early Jan 1944 air superiority had already been won over Europe (by what????? inquiring minds want to know)

 

[GrauGeist]

but hey, by end of Dec 1943/early Jan 1944 air superiority had already been won over Europe (by what????? inquiring minds want to know)

Whatever it was, it sure as hell wasn't the P-39

 

[Milosh]

It is not the reading that is the problem, it is the memory retention of what was read.

 

[33k in the air]

It might help of you actually read a bit more.
The P-47s were getting the wider prop blades starting in Dec of 1943. Likewise the early water injection kits were being fitted from Nov on, most P-47s having gotten the water injection by the end of 1943, but hey, by end of Dec 1943/early Jan 1944 air superiority had already been won over Europe (by what????? inquiring minds want to know)

Roger Freeman's The Mighty Eighth and Mighty Eighth War Manual would be good starting points. (For a detailed day-by-day accounting of the 8th AF's missions in Europe, see Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Diary.) From there one can dig deeper into such things the various USAAF and related reports, documents, and studies.

 

[33k in the air]

Obviously those 109 P-51s had won air superiority over Europe allowing those 415 P-47s to survive.

One of the things Target Berlin does well is depict the sheer scale of effort that went into a 'maximum effort' mission such as the 6 March 1944 raid on Berlin. It covers both sides of the day's conflict in detail.

(Full disclosure: I picked up the book in the early 1990s after Lucasarts' Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe got me interested in the European air campaigns. I still have the game manual, since it also serves as a fairly decent reference book.)