GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Or what appears to be "selective memory retention", perhaps?It is not the reading that is the problem, it is the memory retention of what was read.
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Or what appears to be "selective memory retention", perhaps?It is not the reading that is the problem, it is the memory retention of what was read.
There is also this online, USAAF Combat Operations 1941 - 1945Roger Freeman's The Mighty Eighth and Mighty Eighth War Manual would be good starting points. (For a detailed day-by-day accounting of the 8th AF's missions in Europe, see Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Diary.) From there one can dig deeper into such things the various USAAF and related reports, documents, and studies.
Wider prop blades and water injection didn't do anything for the P-47's inadequate range in '43, did they?It might help of you actually read a bit more.
The P-47s were getting the wider prop blades starting in Dec of 1943. Likewise the early water injection kits were being fitted from Nov on, most P-47s having gotten the water injection by the end of 1943, but hey, by end of Dec 1943/early Jan 1944 air superiority had already been won over Europe (by what????? inquiring minds want to know)
In what sense was it inadequate, what was better? Who wanted long range escort in Jan 1943? Didnt the P-51 and Spitfire get wide blade props?Wider prop blades and water injection didn't do anything for the P-47's inadequate range in '43, did they?
From Target Berlin by Jeffrey Ethell and Alfred Price, p. 167-170
The number of serviceable aircraft in the 8th Air Force on the evening of March 5, 1944 (p. 10 of same source):
777 B-17s
305 B-24s
130 P-38s
415 P-47s
109 P-51s
The Combat Radius for the P-47D's modified for the external pylon plumbing was 425mi w/2x150 gal tanks. As noted, very few P-47D-16s had arrived in squadron strength, nor had the Depot wing mods been installed for earlier blocks of P-47s at BAD1 Burtonwood.Operational radius distances as given on pages 11-12 of same source:
475 miles = P-47 with two 108-gallon drop tanks*
400 miles = P-47 with one 108-gallon drop tank
600 miles = P-38 with two 165-gallon drop tanks
650 miles = P-51 with two 75-gallon drop tanks
* Few P-47s had been modified at this time with the necessary plumbing.
Man, talk about changing the goal posts. We aren't even on the same field.Wider prop blades and water injection didn't do anything for the P-47's inadequate range in '43, did they?
SR - your points were on point, but data and dates are a little off - and important to the narrative regarding crisis of confidence in 8th AF in August 1943.Man, talk about changing the goal posts. We aren't even on the same field.
"And it really didn't matter that the P-47s provided escort through April '44, their range was still way too short. P-47s did get more fuel and wider propeller blades, but only after air superiority had been won over Europe. When the AAF needed them most in 1943, P-47s were inadequate."
This has been shown to be completely false. The P-47s did a lot to help win air superiority, even with their short range.
Not the P-47s fault that Air Force planners wanted to hit targets beyond the range of the P-47.
I would note that the first P-38 Group to operational in Europe with the P-38 does so in Oct of 1943 using the P-38H with 300 gal of internal fuel, range isn't much different than P-47s.
There are already 7 fighter groups in the 8th Air Force using P-47s.
Jeff Ethell and Alfred Price should have cited the 9th AF Escort Strength as the 358FG and 362FG (P-47) and 354FG (P-51) were escorting the 8th AF on 6 March, plus 363rd FG which stood down recovering from 11 weather related losses returning from Berlin on March 4th.
I don't see how anything can be criticised for being short ranged when the accepted wisdom was that long range escort wasn't required or couldn't be done.
The Combat Radius for the P-47D's modified for the external pylon plumbing was 425mi w/2x150 gal tanks.
The combat radius for the P-38J-15 with LE 55 gal tanks and 2x165gal external tanks was 650 miles - and most of the J-10s had been modified by 6 March.
The combat radius of the P-51B-1 and -5 and C-1 modified with 85 gal fuse tank plus 2x75 gal was 700mi.
Francis Dean drew from AAF Planning Documents produced at Wright and Eglin Field as validated by flight tests - to present his data for America's One Hundred Thousand -
I'm too lazy to look it up. What was the range of the 1943 P-47 mentioned in post #2444 and the range of the P-39 at the same time?
The 9th AF FC was under operational control of 8th AF deep into May with only certain P-47 groups tasked to tactical air ops in mid May. The crossover was in mid may when pre- D-Day invasion tasking began and the 9th AF Jugs began supporting 9th AF missions. The P-38 equipped 367th and 474th released in last week of May. The 363rd and 354th P-51s finally moved full time to escorting 9th AF Medium bombers on June 1. The 363rd did perform a non-8th AF escort for B-26s on May 29th.They are designated in the section detailing the escort assignments. But the 9th AF fighters were usually only assigned to 8th AF missions when it was a 'maximum effort' and the 8th AF itself couldn't supply the number of escorts needed.
drgondog said:
The Combat Radius for the P-47D's modified for the external pylon plumbing was 425mi w/2x150 gal tanks.
drgondog said:
The combat radius for the P-38J-15 with LE 55 gal tanks and 2x165gal external tanks was 650 miles - and most of the J-10s had been modified by 6 March.
drgondog said:
The combat radius of the P-51B-1 and -5 and C-1 modified with 85 gal fuse tank plus 2x75 gal was 700mi.
The Tables are for planning purposes only - not absolutes
Lindbergh's fuel management in ETO would have been disastrous.
The only person moaning about its range moans about the weight of a compass. The P-47 wasnt short ranged it just didnt have huge range, its range improved when it was asked to have improved range. In my opinion how things panned out was probably a blessing in disguise.I am not arguing that the P-47 was long range (at least not until the summer of 1944
But harping on it's short range when the allies had few, if any, planes that were much better in 1943 seems a bit of a side show. Better planes were on the way. It took time.
We know the Spitfire was short ranged but the Typhoon wasn't much for range either. 185 US gallons internal wasn't going to do the job for escort work even if the Sabre engine would have worked at 25,000ft.
Obviously those 109 P-51s had won air superiority over Europe allowing those 415 P-47s to survive.![]()
A little more 'serious' than a 'general guideline'. As a Planning document validated by flight Testing and extensive documentation to sort out loading conditions, it represents 'exceed at your own risk' when planning an Op. If you look at aforementioned Encounter Reports detailing fights nearing the outer Radii - but not beyond - you rarely see periods of extended MP of more than several minutes, but great comments regarding low fuel upon return..That was my main point. Radius figures are generally guidelines.
Oh, undoubtedly. Different situations. Just pointing out how various factors can impact combat radius in a given environment.