Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
The point about the navy fighters were that they were designed to be used aboard carriers. A specialist role that land based fighters could not, generally, succeed at. Yes, navy fighters were used from the land, but the fact that they were designed for carrier use explains their existence.
Not nearly to the same extent.
Meteors shot down V-1s, but not much else. They really didn't go into battle.
I didn't say it was unique.
You suggested that the Allies were filling gaps with the multiplicity of types. I disagree with that.
What does the number of types and sub-types of Spitfires have to do with anything?
They were used for defense only, much like the Spit IX's in Soviet service.
In terms of bomber strength it was strongest at the start of the Battle of France.To be honest I think we should. To me the Luftwaffe was never stronger than the start of the Battle of Britain and then the start of Operation Barbarossa. Once 1942 came along the Luftwaffe were always in a slow decline to the point where by mid 1944 the odds of a Western Allies fighter craft being shot down by German fighter craft was quite low, at least compared to a few years earlier. It is very easy to make the late WW2 fighter aircraft look really strong simply because they had almost no opposition.
I think meteors were used with US forces "clobber colleges" to practice/train in ways of dealing with the 262 over Germany.Meteors did offensive patrols when based in Belgium, tho A2G not A2A.
Navy fighter is just another specialization (the Russians had a naval air force too though no aircraft carriers).
Soviet fighters were heavily engaged in ground attack. They almost all had cannon by 1942 and were carrying rockets from the beginning of the war (unlike Anglo-American types).
Nope. Shortround dismissed the Yak 3 as being an overspecialized soviet type and claimed the Soviets had to fill all sorts of gaps with a wide variety of types. I pointed out, correctly, that the Americans and English both fielded more types of fighter aircraft than the Soviets (I didn't even include the English naval fighters but I should - Gladiator, Fulmar and Firefly that's 3 more). So the argument is invalid and in fact, ridiculous.
Nor by the way do I think it was a mistake of the Soviets to build a dedicated ground attack aircraft in the Sturmovik as Shortround implied. That is ridiculous. The Sturmovik was extremely effective in the long run and destroyed a whole lot of German tanks.
Oh, boy.........
Yeah, it is a specialization that calls for different landing speeds and different low speed handling characteristics
Heavily engaged refers to rate of use or number of missions flow. It says nothing about the effectiveness of the attacks, like how many sorties were needed to get a given effect. The Russian 20mm cannon was not particularly good at armor penetration.
For the US late model P-38s, P-47s and P-51s were somewhat interchangeable as to the missions they flew. They all could fly bomber escort, they all could fly fighter fighter
This does not mean the Western allies missed the boat in not adopting an IL-2 type aircraft.
The US cancelled thousands of dive bombers for Army use once they started using fighter bombers in numbers.
But in practice the actual aircraft that came out of the factories overlapped enough that it really didn't make that much difference. A Fairy Fulmar may not have been a good enough fighter to take on land based fighters, but the A6M, F4F, F6F and Corsair most certainly were. As was the Seafire if you could get the carrier close enough
Because by 1943 it was too slow. So the USAAF also, let us not forget, made the Allison engined P-51 into a Dive Bomber. This tends to get papered over but that was the job of that plane in the USAAF. One wonders why they didn't make it into a fighter but that's what they did - put dive brakes on it and everything. It had the speed to escape Luftwaffe fighters so it did have good characteristics for that niche.
What defined a Carrier aircraft varied quite a bit nation by nation and was not a hard science............Some of the characteristics you listed like stronger landing gear and suitability for shorter landings and takeoffs is applicable to carrier planes, but not necessarily. The Corsair for example defies the definition in many respects. The Corsair also turned out to be in no way inferior to land based fighters, in fact quite to the contrary.
But the larger point is simply this as I already stated - Naval planes in general are just another specialization.
You have described your theory before that Russian planes weren't any good at destroying German military vehicles because they didn't carry heavy enough ordinance. And you think Russian Rockets weren't effective either.... 60 & 80mm mortars aren't good at destroying tanks etc. All of these are nice theories but they are no more than that - as you know, back of the envelope calculations do not trump historical evidence for me, in fact to the contrary. So post some historical evidence* to support your outlier theory here - until then don't expect anyone else to operate as if your theories are facts.
Specifically to do with rockets and cannon - as you are probably aware, heavy tanks remained rare in the German army. Not every German tank was a Tiger. Rocket and cannon attacks may or may not be good at knocking out or disabling Tigers, but they are more than capable of destroying all the other vehicles and ordinance that made up the German armed forces. Everything from horse drawn carts, to trucks and prime movers, to halftracks, open topped Marders and Wespes and all sorts of artillery and AT guns, are extremely vulnerable to 20mm cannons and the equivalent of 80mm mortars. In fact, actual light and medium caliber mortars probably destroyed more German troops and kit than almost any other weapon.
Ground attack and close air support, precision vs tonnage
You and I (and some other people in this forum) have a long running debate about the value of a bomber. This came up repeatedly in discussions in other threads about the Pe-2, the Mosquito and many other fighter related arguments including earlier in this one I think. You, and some others here, attribute effectiveness for ground attack to heaviness of ordinance. The notion of the bomber as "bomb truck" - perhaps best summed up as whether a Lancaster is ultimately a better bomber than a Mosquito.
But when we zoom in from bombers in general to the more narrow field of close air support, I think it is obvious and very well established that the role of accuracy is key. For one thing, it's very important not to hit your own troops. This is one of the reasons why their was, and still is a subtype of CAS aircraft that is relatively light, slow and highly maneuverable. For the Russians in WW2, the I-15 / 153 series of biplane fighters were very helpful for CAS for this exact reason. The Germans also used biplanes (see He 51), and today this particular niche is partly taken up by attack helicopters, but also by light aircraft like the Super Tucano, Bae Hawk, Aero L-159A etc..
But actually they really weren't. P-51s pretty quickly became the main, then the only escort fighter. P-47s were increasingly relegated to ground attack and frontal defense - and late in the war they made the specialized super fast sprinter P-47M specialized specifically for dogfighting the new German jets. P-38s meanwhile were basically phased out of use in Europe when P-51s became available. Spitfires remained the main interceptor for the Anglo-American forces through the end of the war. So they did specialize. Everyone did.
I don't think the F4F was good enough to take on contemporary land based fighters such as the Fw 190A or Bf 109F.
The F6F is surely marginal against land based contemporaries too, having Spitfire V performance in mid 1943.
A6M? Had some success against land based fighters, but I don't think it was good enough for very long.
Again, please don't use your superior imagination to change my positions from what I have written. Somehow, due to somebody's "imagination" not as good has turned into weren't any good. They are not the same thing and there is a lot of grey in effectiveness instead of black and white.
The 20mm ShVAK would not kill MK III and MK IV tanks. It would be lucky to kill the Czech tanks and as for the Lowly MK II
The ShVak was rated at penetrating 24mm of armor at 100m distance with a 90 degree impact angle according to one source. Now let's use those despised back of the envelope calculations to check a few things.
we haven't even gotten to rockets, small and large bombs.
A lot of this so called accuracy of the biplane went out the proverbial window when a lot of them were used for night harassment missions.
I am not saying that they were the equal of each other, I am saying that should the need arise, squadrons or groups could be transferred or given new
For the Russians it was the Yak-9D &DD or nothing, there was NO second best. They didn't have another fighter that had the range regardless of
How does an aircraft type "go away" some mystery virus or new found metal eating bacteria? I used to enjoy this forum but there are now too many smart alec posters with fantasy opinions calling "BS" on any sensible discussion with fantasy scenarios.And I'm calling BS on that. If the P-51s went away they would have had to stop flying heavy bomber missions into Berlin that same day. P-47s and P-38s were not going to cut it.
How does an aircraft type "go away" some mystery virus or new found metal eating bacteria? I used to enjoy this forum but there are now too many smart alec posters with fantasy opinions calling "BS" on any sensible discussion with fantasy scenarios.
The F6F is surely marginal against land based contemporaries too, having Spitfire V performance in mid 1943.
Seafire was definitely inferior to the Spitfire, but IIRC its range without drop tank(s) was simialr to the F6F's.
We had this same debate in another thread. You'll have to forgive me if i don't buy your assumptions or your math. I suspect your thumb is on the scale with regard to the specific ammunition used or the subtype, but I don't care enough about the issue to wade deep into it yet again. Suffice to say that I believe (like many WW2 pilots and engineers) that nose mounted guns were more accurate than wing mounted, that 20mm cannon, with AP or API ammunition, hit harder than 12.7mm, and I know for a fact that most vehicles and ordinance in the German army could not withstand automatic 20mm cannon-fire.
Don't waste your time unless you are going to post actual historical accounts or data.
Have it your way, at 96 gram projectile of 20mm diameter with a muzzle velocity of 750 meters a second is fully the equal of a 128 gram projectile of 20mm diameter with a muzzle velocity of 880 meters a second when it comes to armor penetration and'or destructive power.
And 140 rounds of such ammo is equal to 360 rounds (or more)
And, oh yes, the earth is flat.
If the P-51 didn't exist, then the US would know it didn't exist, the P-47N was in almost all respects the equal of the P-51 including range. It is therefore an issue of how quickly a P-47N version or similar could be brought into service and what offensive operations would be done in the meantime.I'm sorry you couldn't follow the Thread. I'm just answering Shortround who claimed that all late war USAAF Fighters were fully interchangable, in direct contrast to the Soviet fighters which he claimed were overly specialized, and therefore "not Great".
I was pointing out that they were not, in fact interchangeable and that deep raids into places like Berlin were only possible because of the P-51.
How would an aircraft type "go away"? Well it's pointless to speculate since it didn't happen to the P-51 - i was only making a point, a point so obvious I shouldn't have had to make it. I certainly can't think of any way that P-51 production could have stopped. Some promising aircraft types however did not get made, or weren't made in sufficient numbers, because the factories were bombed or certain strategic metals were not available in sufficient supply and so on.
On July 7th '44 P-38s flew escort for B-24s to Halle and Bernberg Germany (about 60-70 miles southwest of Berlin?) claiming 18 German aircraft for no losses.
Operational planning charts show a radius of 650 miles for P-38 J&L when carrying 165 gallon drop tanks.
Operational planning charts show a radius of 425 miles for P-47D (with 305 gallons internal) when carrying 150 gallon drop tanks.
Operational planning charts show a radius of 600 miles for P-47D (with 370 gallons internal) when carrying 150 gallon drop tanks.
Operational planning charts show a radius of 450 miles for P-51 (with 184 gallons internal) when carrying 75 gallon drop tanks.
Operational planning charts show a radius of 700 miles for P-51 (with 269 gallons internal) when carrying 75 gallon drop tanks.
The P-51 was certainly the best choice. It was not the only choice.