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Operations in Jan -Mar 1944 were not deep into Germany, they were not even solely US forces. To continue the attrition required hitting deep into Germany and also preparing for D-Day. You are far too partisan, if the P-47 and P-51 were identical in all respects for bomber escort the P-51 would be chosen because the P-47 was better at CAS.In January to March44 when the Luftwaffe went over the top of the atrition curve and we won air suppirriority it looks pretty grey to me. Maybe you should have another look at you own valley.
*SNIP*
and the p51s had only accounted for a small minority of kills up to that time so by definition the often quoted" the p51 turned things around" is not true and an example ot the topic" most overrated aircraft", "the only fighter that could take the bombers to Berlin and back "being another sterling example.
Cool, i had never read about that.The F4F-7 was a photoreconnaissance variant, with armor and armament removed. It had non-folding "wet" wings that carried an additional 555 gal (2,101 L) of fuel for a total of about 700 gal (2,650 L), increasing its range to 3,700 mi (5,955 km). A total of 21 were built.[8]
Allow me to introduce myself, I am an interested layman with an interest in WW2 aviation. I have learned a huge amount from the posters here some of whom are historians and also pilots, aero engineers and all sorts of other relevant occupations covering a huge range of "stuff". In most cases its best to ask a question than make an assertion, then see what results and make up your own mind.Cool, i had never read about that.
In a way I agree with you, you just over egged the pudding.I think all you p51 defenders( god bless you souls) are missing the piont here. The thread is not which is the better aircraft. The thread, and my comment are, is which is the most overrated aircraft of which I gave two solid examples( which are both just facts. 1: by 44 the p47 could and did fly mission as far as berlin and back and so sid the p38 so the often quoted" the only fighter that could go all the way to Berlin and back" is an example of overrating. 2: " the p51 turned things around" most historians, at least the ones i have read agree we had won air ssuperiority by March( although i am certainly open to reading other historians with different views. I know there are a few). The p51 only accounted for a small minority off kills up to that point so it is factually accurate to say that that is an example of overrated by the verry definition of the words. This is not to say the p51 was not the best choice to make from that point on, especially when cost is factored in but what it does mean is that it is indeed overrated.
Resp:No, actually Two P-51 Fighter Groups (354/357) accounted for 64.5 VC's destroyed, 11 P-47D Fighter Groups accounted for 78.0 and two P-38 FG's accounted for 10. Source USAF 85. Period February 20-25. What the P-51B did was basically kill LW ability to deploy T/E fighters with extremely heavy firepower out of range of Escorts - and be able to out perform the 109/190 escorts at 25-30K. Faster cruise, longer range, superior high altitude performance over the P-38 AND very difficult to identify.
As another illustration, five P-51FG (318.5), 9 P-47 Groups (316.) and 3 P-38 FGs (35) accounted for the 8th AF VCs (with 354/363 assigned from 9th, along with 4/355 and 357 FG) between 2-20 and 3-18-1944 and by June 1944 the Mustang FGs accounted for more victory credits than all the P-47 VCs from start of 8th AF combat ops in April 1943.
Next - P-51B/C with 85 gallon internal fuse tank and 110 gallon externals had greater combat radius than P-38K with 55 gal LE tanks plus 165 gallon external tanks and cruise about 40mph faster TAS at 25K. The P-38J was relegated mostly to either sweeps or intermediate escort in April-July timeframe.
Last - the P47D-25 with not only wing pylons/fuel feed of the -15, but also 370 gallons internal fuel, arrived in squadron numbers in July-August 1944, too late and too few to step up to LR escort as the P-51B/D groups were firmly entrenched.
I wasn't trying to make assertions. the thread is which aircraft is the most overrated. I gave my opinion and the reasons why. An opinion isnt worth much without reasons. Others obviously have other opinions and that's what makes this interesting. If you go back and read the conversation, several times i deferred to others statistics just to be polite.Allow me to introduce myself, I am an interested layman with an interest in WW2 aviation. I have learned a huge amount from the posters here some of whom are historians and also pilots, aero engineers and all sorts of other relevant occupations covering a huge range of "stuff". In most cases its best to ask a question than make an assertion, then see what results and make up your own mind.
I am not in the slightest bit partisan against the p51. As a matter of fact if i were running things in 1944 i would have chosen to equip mostly although not entirely with the mustang myself. It was obviously the best choice for many ( but not all) fighter missions but thats not what this thread or my comments were about. The thread and my comments are which aircraft is most overrated. The p51 was in my estamation 10 or 20 percent better for most fighter missions but certainly not all than the alternatives and at half the cost just to try and put a number on it( yes others may differ) but the post war reputation that has sprang up around it is that it was 100 % better and i gave two what im pretty sure are facts that show some of the things most frequently atributed to the 51 to justify this are simply not true and thereby indicate, at least in my mind, a solid case of overrating.Operations in Jan -Mar 1944 were not deep into Germany, they were not even solely US forces. To continue the attrition required hitting deep into Germany and also preparing for D-Day. You are far too partisan, if the P-47 and P-51 were identical in all respects for bomber escort the P-51 would be chosen because the P-47 was better at CAS.
I apologize if I came off as to edgy so to speak. That certainly wasn't my intention. I just wanted to give the reasons behind my pick. Sometimes its hard to differ with something that has to many become almost theology without being perceived as confrontational. Again, that certainly wasn't my intention.In a way I agree with you, you just over egged the pudding.
I apologize if I came off as to edgy so to speak. That certainly wasn't my intention. I just wanted to give the reasons behind my pick. Sometimes its hard to differ with something that has to many become almost theology without being perceived as confrontational. Again, that certainly wasn't my intention.
Not to belabor the point you are trying to make, namely "51 overrated", but the P-47D was not tasked for Berlin in 1944, nor was any P-47 Fighter Group so tasked for 500 mile radius strikes in ETO until the P-47D-25 began arriving in numbers after D-Day.I think all you p51 defenders( god bless you souls) are missing the piont here. The thread is not which is the better aircraft. The thread, and my comment are, is which is the most overrated aircraft of which I gave two solid examples( which are both just facts. 1: by 44 the p47 could and did fly mission as far as berlin and back and so sid the p38 so the often quoted" the only fighter that could go all the way to Berlin and back" is an example of overrating. 2: " the p51 turned things around" most historians, at least the ones i have read agree we had won air ssuperiority by March( although i am certainly open to reading other historians with different views. I know there are a few). The p51 only accounted for a small minority off kills up to that point so it is factually accurate to say that that is an example of overrated by the verry definition of the words. This is not to say the p51 was not the best choice to make from that point on, especially when cost is factored in but what it does mean is that it is indeed overrated.
By theology I simply meant an deeply held belief. Sorry if that choice of words offended you.Theology?
F@ck it, was going to respond but not worth it.
Your first two paragraphs are basically my point so to speak. 1 the p47 could and eventually did fly missions to Berlin and back thus making the frequently stated" the only fighter that could go to Berlin and back" untrue and, at least in my mind, solid, factual case of overrating. Admittedly the second is a little harder to pin down but most of the historians I have read seam to think we had achieved air suppirriority by March. The pinning down of the exact date air suppirriority was achieved is a difficult if not impossible task but for my point to be valid we don't need to. If the p51 only achieved a minority of kills regardless of superior kill ratios up to the point that the Luftwaffe went over the edge of the attrition curve(which of course would be substantially before the date of air suppirriority) then the p51 didn't turn anything around. I.e. by that time the Luftwaffe was going down p51 or no p51 a point which i think we can all agree on which is entirely independent of the p51s merits or lack thereof and makes the often steted "the p51 turned things around durring the month of big week" factually inaccurate and if words mean anything a case of overrating.Not to belabor the point you are trying to make, namely "51 overrated", but the P-47D was not tasked for Berlin in 1944, nor was any P-47 Fighter Group so tasked for 500 mile radius strikes in ETO until the P-47D-25 began arriving in numbers after D-Day.
That burden/opportunity fell to P-38J with LE tanks and P-51B/C with 85 gallon internal fuselage tank. The P-38J took a back seat to the P-51 by the time May Oil Offensive was in full bloom and 8th AF had already began transition of 20th, 55th and 364th FG to Mustangs by mid July 1944. I would argue that 'air superiority' as a state, occurred in Q2/1944 which is in agreement with Galland. His perspective was that LW air superiority could not be Regained during Q1, but all hope for parity was lost in Q2.
Air Superiority in March, 1944 is an interesting question and begs for definition, but one fact is clear. In March 1944 there were no safe bases for Me 110/410 Day Fighters and no 'safe places' for them to form up for an attack on 8th AF. It took a little longer for 15th because the P-38H in-theatre were not replaced in quantity until May/June 1944 with P-38J-15 with LE tanks and the P-51Bs did the heavy lifting in S. and E. Germany and Austria.
Second fact, is that the operational issues of the P-38H and early J-5 had reached tipping point. Even though the P-38J-10 with LE kits were operational for Berlin range, the dive flaps and final intercooler mods were too late for the P-38 to remain as high priority compared to P-51B/C for LR escort. By the time the 479th arrived for ops in late May, six P-47 groups had transitioned and the 339th entered ops to support the 357th. There were enough to commit releasing P-38s to 9th and make final commitment to convert 78, 353 and 356FG to Mustang in fall, 1944.
Third fact - The P-47D, pre D-25 could well perform medium Penetration/Withdrawal escort and that coverage was still required to blunt LW ops from LF 3 and LuftReich forces still based in west/central Germany. By May/June the last P-38 FG in 8th were still flying some target escort but the P-51B had taken over for Berlin, Munich, Posnan, Brux, Ruhland range targets.
Fourth Fact - The P-38J, as they existed in Feb through late May, 1944 were a.) insufficient in strength to perform escort for three 8th AF Bomb Divisions in the execution of Argument, or b.) the destruction of the LW in air and ground prior to D-Day. They were not only incapable of achieving air superiority over the LW FW 190 and Bf 109G at bomber altitudes, but also incapable of preventing Berlin/Schwienfurt type bomber/crew losses - which were a major political lightning (pardon the pun) rod that almost cost the USSAFE the initiative to continue strategic daylight operations.
So, if your argument that the P-51B Didn't Save the Day for 8th AF, I'm fine with that but remain unclear what your objective criteria might be? I'm also fine with a statement that the P-51 was over rated. It all "depends'.
I'm sure your stats are vallid but the kill ratios or number or missions and on what dates they occurred have no berring on the question were the p38/p47 capable of, and at some point did they fly 600 plus missions and is the distance between boxted and Berlin 589 miles. If the answer to both these guestions is yes and they are, then the frequently given tribute to the p51 in popular post war articles that it was the" the only fighter that could make it to Berlin and back" is factually inaccurate and thereby a case of overrating.I just perused the P-38 air victory credits from February 10 through April 30, 1944. One victory at Oldenburg (March 6) and one at Schweinfurt - the rest essentially inside the Brunswick, Magdeburg, Ulm radius. Ditto losses, pointing to intermediate combat radius escort - beyond most P-47D missions but well short of most P-51B escorts.
I'm sure your stats are vallid but the kill ratios or number or missions and on what dates they occurred have no berring on the question were the p38/p47 capable of, and at some point did they fly 600 plus missions and is the distance between boxted and Berlin 589 miles. If the answer to both these guestions is yes and they are, then the frequently given tribute to the p51 in popular post war articles that it was the" the only fighter that could make it to Berlin and back" is factually inaccurate and thereby a case of overrating.
Yes those articals are under reserched and they are legeon. That is my point. As far as the p38/p47d in 44 there is no could have if the manufacturers made changes about it unless everything I have read is wrong( always a posibiity) p47d23 combat range with 300 gallon external 670 miles and thats allows for warm up, take off ,15 minutes or so at military power etc.etc and the distance in question is 589. And certainly there is no issue the p38 can and did fly these distances. That in the case of the 47 they were not tasked to till later does not negate the point that there were other planes that could and did. Some earlier, some later which brings us back to the topic of this thread, overrated aircraft. That the p51 was a better choice for most escort missions is not the topic or point of my comments. That the two most commonly asserted things about the p51 that give it in the eyes of many an almost mythical status are untrue and thereby constitute by definition a case of overrating. That the p51 was quite an aicraft I do not in any way contest. That it ran up quite an impressive record is obvious( an looks great to). That however is niether the topic of this thread nor the focus of my comments. That topic and focus are on overratedness and if two of the main things most often quoted about an aircraft that give it its status in the eyes of many( certainly almost 100% of the average joe on the street) are not true then this is by definition a case of overrating.Michael - articles that said that the Mustang was the only fighter to make it to Berlin and back are simply 'under-researched'. It is a known fact that for example, The P-38J escorted the 8th AF to Berlin on March 6, 1944. It is also a fact that 9th AF 354th FG and 4th FG ranged to Berlin, north of Berlin and returned on Mar 4, and March 6. It is also a fact that the P-47D-25 COULD have done so had Republic been able to make the changes REQUIRED to increase internal fuel to match timetable of P-38J and P-51B.
But it did not. The P-82 could have flown nearly to Moscow and back but it was too late. The P-47N could have flown the Berlin missions, the Poland and Czechoslovakia missions, Ploesti and 20th AF missions from Iwo - bit it was too late to make a difference in Argument, Ditto P-47D-25.
You are an intelligent guy - why are you droning on about what each of the fighters you mentioned when they simply didn't have the ability to a.) Perform Deep Target escort, and b.) achieve air superiority over deep targets and c.) achieve by far the most damage to airfield parked aircraft beyond Berlin to compliment the fight in the air. The P-51B achieved all those objectives in the most important Period for USSAFE, when it was URGENT and Required to destroy LW capability of seriously affecting D-Day operations. Neither the P-47D, and to lesser extent, P-38J, were effective in the destruction (contrast annoy) of the LW over the oilfields and aircraft center of gravity in east Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia.
What if the question was - What was the most important fighter in the air war OVER Germany? Over Japan? Over Ploesti?