Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....? (1 Viewer)

[michael rauls]

Well I certainly don't fancy myself an expert but I have read those same numbers 277 and 88 respectively I believe,from several sources so I accepted them. Perhaps its the month of big week, Febuary they are refering to? Even using your numbers however the p51s claimed a minority of kills be it a substantial minority which still makes my point which was not that the 51 was not a great airplane, it was. The point and the subject of this thread is the most overrated aircraft. As far as the range I am looking at as I type a coppy of Americas 100,000 probably the definitive book on the subject as far as I know and the figures given are for the p47 d-23 l(still the earlier razor back version I believe) and given with 5 minutes fuel for warm up and take off, climb to 25,000 feet, cruise at 25,000 feet, 5 minutes air combat power,15 minutes at military power, cruise back at 25,000 feet, and 30 minutes reserve at minimum cruise power with 300 external gal capacity. The combat radius given is 670 miles making Berlin well within range at 589 miles from boxted and thats with 30 min reserve! So my comment was on the topic of the thread" the most over rated aircraft" not that the p51 wasn't good. By the end of febuary 44 I think everyone would agree that the Luftwaffe was past the bend in the attrition curve(every historian I have ever read on the subject says we achieved air suppirriority by march so they were certainly on the downward slope by February) and the p51s had only accounted for a small minority of kills up to that time so by definition the often quoted" the p51 turned things around" is not true and an example ot the topic" most overrated aircraft", "the only fighter that could take the bombers to Berlin and back "being another sterling example.

 

[Milosh]

Micheal, how much fuel was allotted for forming up? Also more fuel is consumed flying in formation. The more a/c in a formation the more fuel consumed.

 

[michael rauls]

Well since p47s did on more than one occasion fly missions over 600 miles including Berlin, obviously not enough to change anything.

 

[michael rauls]

I went back and double checked and the numbers i quoted ie 270 kills for p38s, p47s and 88 for p51s was for the whole week of February not just big week but it still proves the point of p51 overratedness just the same.

 

[Milosh]

What was the ratio of a/c involved to kills?

 

[Shortround6]

What was the ratio of a/c involved to kills?

See Drgondog's post #1279
While not broken out into aircraft (or kills per hundred aircraft) he did give kills/claims with the number of fighter groups involved. Mustangs seem to have been about 5 times more effective Feb 20-25 than P-47s. Some other things may skew results a bit but that kind of difference is hard to ignore.

 

[pbehn]

I went back and double checked and the numbers i quoted ie 270 kills for p38s, p47s and 88 for p51s was for the whole week of February not just big week but it still proves the point of p51 overratedness just the same.

No it doesn't, once targets are attacked and destroyed within range of the P-38 and P-47 then it is game over without a new longer range weapon.

 

[michael rauls]

I have recently read that from spring 44 on the p47 was 6.9 to 1. I have read different figures pn the p51 everything from 7 to1 all the way up to 10 to 1. The 474th, the only group oparating the p38 to ve day in Europe was about 5 to 1.

 

[michael rauls]

No it doesn't, once targets are attacked and destroyed within range of the P-38 and P-47 then it is game over without a new longer range weapon.

With proper fuel management taught by linberg the p38 had about 200 miles range or 100 mile combat radius than the 51. I read several cases of p38 s flying 9 hr missions.

 

[michael rauls]

With proper fuel management taught by linberg the p38 had about 200 miles range or 100 mile combat radius than the 51. I read several cases of p38 s flying 9 hr missions.

Also not to be to argumentative but by that logic once all the targets within the p51s range are destroyed its also" game over" without a longer range aircraft. Not to point out the obvious but thats one of the reasons ground troops need to advance at some point.

 

[wuzak]

With proper fuel management taught by linberg the p38 had about 200 miles range or 100 mile combat radius than the 51. I read several cases of p38 s flying 9 hr missions.

Because flying at 180mph was the best way to fly over Germany in WW2.

 

[fubar57]

 

[davparlr]

All of this has been gone over before. I did a pretty detailed post which I will repost here:


Battle over Germany, January, 1944


P-51B, P-47PreD-25, F4U-1, P-38J, Escort Ability vs. Me-109G and Fw-190A-8


This is a topic that should activate all the white knights out there.


I wanted to try to come grasp how these four aircraft would perform in the escort role over Germany against their German opponent. The F4U was thrown in because it was brought up as an aircraft that should have been built instead of the P-47 (and I think the P-51, too). First I wanted to define the requirements of an escort fighter for supporting daylight bombing of Berlin by B-17s and B-24s. This is what I determined was needed.

1. Range to fly to Berlin and back

2. Endurance to allow a meaningful combat time under enemy attack.

3. Equal-to or better capability of engaging enemy aircraft in combat at or above 20,000 ft.


The methodology I used to compare these planes were, 1) determine total internal and external fuel available each aircraft, 2) calculate fuel required to transit to target (approx. 600 miles) at 25,000 ft, 3) calculate fuel required to return to base (I used ingress fuel since I am lazy and probably didn't have this data. Still should be okay for comparisons), 4) calculate fuel available for combat, 5) calculate combat time at Normal Rated Power (NRP), 6) compare performance at 20,000, 25,000, and 30,000 ft. Since the data available was not all compatible between aircraft (it never is), some alchemy was required to generate fuel consumption at 25,000 ft. It all seems to pass the smell test.


Assumptions.


1) Flight profile goes directly to Germany, optimum cruise, engage defenders, fly directly home. Weaving over slower bombers is not calculated but obviously would reduce time in combat. Comparisons are still valid.

2) Combat is engaged over target area and external fuel tanks jettisoned at commencement of combat. Again, if engaged inbound to target, combat time would be affected, but comparisons are still valid. Combat time would also be affected if a pilot hangs onto his tanks (which I don't think would be wise).

3) Normal Rated Power for combat is used for comparison purposes (another one of my simplifying decisions). Mil and max power will affect the higher HP aircraft to a greater extent (for example, a P-51 at max will be using less fuel than a P-47 because of the HP difference).

4) External fuel is a variable for most aircraft. In most cases, external fuel was enough to make it to the target area. The only exception was the F4U, which had to use some internal fuel to make the target.


References here are:

1) Flight Operations Instructions Chart, P-51D and K,

2) Tactical Planning Characteristics & Performance Chart, P-47

3) What appears to be a P-38 Pilot Handbook showing fuel consumption,

4) America's Hundred-Thousand

5) Other sources


Information Key:

Internal fuel – Useable Fuel stored internally in the aircraft

External fuel – Fuel stored in jettisonable tanks

Transit Fuel – Fuel required to fly from home base to target area not including takeoff and climb

Return to base – Fuel required to return to home base

Fuel available at combat start – Fuel remaining after jettison of external fuel

Fuel available for combat – fuel remaining after jettison minus return to base

Combat time – Time to consume fuel available for combat at normal rated power


P-38J

Internal Fuel, 410 gal

External Fuel, 600 gal

Transit Fuel, 600 miles, 277 gal

Return to base, 600 miles, 277 gal

Fuel available at combat start, 410 gal

Fuel available for combat, 123 gal

Combat time at NRP, 35 min.


P-47D Pre -25

Internal Fuel 305 gal

External Fuel 410 gal

Transit Fuel, 600 miles, 261 gal

Return to Base, 600 miles, 261 gal

Fuel available at combat start, 305 gal.

Fuel available for combat 44 gal

Combat time at NRP, 16 min.


F4U-1

Internal Fuel, 351 gal

External Fuel, 175 gal

Transit Fuel, 600 miles, 186 gal

Return to Base, 600 miles, 186 gal

Fuel available at combat start, 340 gal (Note: internal fuel was required to be used for ingress after drop tank was empty.)

Fuel available for combat, 154 gal.

Combat time at NRP, 1 hour, 6 min.


P-51B

Internal Fuel 269 gal

External Fuel 216 gal

Transit Fuel, 600 miles 108 gal

Return to Base, 600 miles 108 gal

Fuel available at combat start 229 gal. Note: 85 gal fuselage tank used down to 65 gal for combat stability.

Fuel available for combat 121 gal

Combat time at NRP, 1 hr 14 min.


Performance at 20k ft. (B-24 Altitude)



P-38J

Airspeed, 410 mph

Climb, 3000 ft/min

Ceiling, 44,000 ft.


P-47D Pre -25

Airspeed, 402 mph

Climb, 1565 ft/min

Ceiling, 42,000 ft.


F4U-1

Airspeed, 430 mph

Climb, 2800 ft/min

Ceiling, 36,900 ft.


P-51B

Airspeed, 424 mph

Climb, 2915 ft/min

Ceiling, 42,000


Luftwaffe Opposition



Bf-109G

Airspeed, 399 mph

Climb, 3094 ft/min

Ceiling, 39,000


Fw-190A-8

Airspeed, 405 mph

Climb, 2400 ft/min

Ceiling 35,000 ft.



Performance at 25k ft. (B-17 Altitude)



P-38J

Airspeed, 415 mph

Climb, 2600 ft/min

Ceiling, 44,000 ft.



P-47D Pre -25

Airspeed, 435 mph

Climb, 2300 ft/min

Ceiling, 42,000 ft.


F4U-1

Airspeed, 424 mph

Climb, 1650 ft/min

Ceiling, 36,900 ft.


P-51B

Airspeed, 427 mph

Climb, 2600 ft/min

Ceiling, 42,000 ft.



Luftwaffe Opposition



Bf-109G

Airspeed, 420 mph

Climb, 2200 ft/min

Ceiling, 39,000 ft.


Fw-190A-8

Airspeed, 392 mph

Climb, 2,200

Ceiling, 35,000 ft.



Performance at 30k ft. (Top Cover)


P-38J

Airspeed, 415 mph

Climb, 1900 ft/min

Ceiling, 44,000 ft.


P-47D-20

Airspeed, 430 mph

Climb, 1300 ft/min

Ceiling, 42,000


F4U-1

Airspeed, 390 mph

Climb, 1,000 ft/min

Ceiling, 36,900 ft/min


P-51B

Airspeed, 441 mph

Climb, 2250 ft/min

Ceiling, 42,000 ft.


Luftwaffe Opposition



Bf-109G

Airspeed, 400 mph

Climb, 1625 ft/min

Ceiling, 39,000 ft.


Fw-190 A-8

Airspeed, 386 mph

Climb, 1080 ft/sec

Ceiling, 35,000 ft.


Observations:


P-38J

Very good range with average time in combat.

Competitive performance with opposition. Generally superior climb rate.

Good high altitude performance, excellent ceiling.

P-38 would probably be an effective escort with capable pilots


P-47D-20

Limited range, poor time in combat

Performance limited at 20k, much better as altitude increases

Very good high altitude performance.

P-47 effectiveness limited by range. Later P-47 versions solved this problem, especially the P-47N, with larger internal fuel capacity.


F4U-1

Excellent range, excellent time in combat

Capable performance at lower altitudes, suffers at high altitude, low ceiling.

F4U would suffer in escort duty due to lack of high altitude performance. The aircraft would have needed the -18W engine to adequately perform at the higher altitudes, this engine was not available until mid to late '44. Turbocharging was probably not an option. The F4U-4, available in May, '44, alleviates the high altitude performance problem, but reduced internal fuel would hamper escort ability.


P-51B

Excellent range, excellent time in combat

Comparable performance to opposition at 20k, outperforms Bf-109 and easily outperforms Fw-190 at 25k. Easily outperforms both at 30k.

The P-51B was most likely the most efficient propeller aircraft in WWII. Its speed/hp at SL is .246 mph/hp. Comparison to other aircraft, P-51D is .23, Fw-190D-9 is .217, Ta-152H is .18, F4U-1 is .162, and the P-47B is .15 (note that the F4U-1 is slightly more efficient than the P-47, which is reflected in the range numbers even though they have roughly the same engine). The efficiency of the P-51, combined with a moderate internal fuel load, and very good high altitude performance is the secret to its supremacy in the escort fighter role.


Bf-109G

The Bf-109 has some good climb characteristics but suffers in airspeed. In general, it is somewhat competitive up to 25k. It is outperformed by the AF escort fighters above 25k.


Fw-190A-8

Except for the P-47 at 20k ft. and the F4U, the Fw-190 has significant performance shortcomings to the escort fighters at these altitudes.


At the altitudes where the bombers flew, except maybe the B-24, the Luftwaffe fighters had performance shortcomings, especially with the P-51. January to June, '44 was a critical time for Germany, being pressured by the Russians on the East and D-Day being prepared on the West and with ever increasing bomber formations over the homeland. The Germans were not able to adequately contend the airspace above 20k ft. until the advent of the Bf-109K and the Fw-190D-9 in late '44.


So, gird your loins and do battle with what I have presented and point out errors, which is possible, in my logic and/or data.

 

[pbehn]

With proper fuel management taught by linberg the p38 had about 200 miles range or 100 mile combat radius than the 51. I read several cases of p38 s flying 9 hr missions.

The F4F-7 had a range of 3,700 miles. Combat range is how far you can fly home after fighting for a given period of time not how far an aircraft can be made to fly.

 

[pbehn]

View attachment 501064​

How green was my valley, look you.

 

[michael rauls]

The F4F-7 had a range of 3,700 miles. Combat range is how far you can fly home after fighting for a given period of time not how far an aircraft can be made to fly.

 

[michael rauls]

F4f 7? 3700 mies?

 

[pbehn]

F4f 7? 3700 mies?

The F4F-7 was a photoreconnaissance variant, with armor and armament removed. It had non-folding "wet" wings that carried an additional 555 gal (2,101 L) of fuel for a total of about 700 gal (2,650 L), increasing its range to 3,700 mi (5,955 km). A total of 21 were built.[8]

 

[michael rauls]

How green was my valley, look you.

In January to March44 when the Luftwaffe went over the top of the atrition curve and we won air suppirriority it looks pretty grey to me. Maybe you should have another look at you own valley.

 

[michael rauls]

How green was my valley, look you.

In January to March of 44 when most historians say we won air suppirriority that valley looks pretty grey to me.