Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?

[pbehn]

Yes thats an 80 mile longer reach. Certainly significant. But my point wasn't absolute range or combat radius. I think everyone knows the p51 had it over the p47 in this department. My point was that both the p38 and p47 could and did also reach Berlin thereby making the ofter used " fact" about the p51 that it was the only fighter to take the bombers to Berlin and back" untrue and thereby a case of overrating. Disclaimer: overrateness does not in any way reflect on the actual abilities, assets, accomplishments of the aircraft in question. Individual millage may vary. See your doctor if overratedness lasts more than 4 hrs. One to a customer.

But again you are using planes from much later. Staying with a bomber formation flying at 150MPH considerably reduces the range. The maps with maximum radius of action ignore the fact that the escorts had to fly out to meet the bombers and then escort them. Compare the place that P-47s turned back on the Schweinfur-Revensburg raid with the actual maximum range of the planes and Spitfires were used in the first phase.

 

[DarrenW]

I'm definitely not the brightest bulb on the tree when it comes to the ETO, but I'm learning much from everyone here who is far more knowledgeable on the subject than myself so please forgive my ignorance. I was always under the assumption that while the P-38 and later model P-47 could and did make it to Berlin and back, these were primarily fighter sweeps or missions involving bomber rendezvous over the target. The only fighter with the range to stay with the bombers the entire trip was the P-51. It could continuously weave and provide top cover for the bomber stream all the way in and all the way out, while the other fighters would run out of gas doing so. At least this was the case for most of 1944. Can someone please clarify this for me?

 

[michael rauls]

But again you are using planes from much later. Staying with a bomber formation flying at 150MPH considerably reduces the range. The maps with maximum radius of action ignore the fact that the escorts had to fly out to meet the bombers and then escort them. Compare the place that P-47s turned back on the Schweinfur-Revensburg raid with the actual maximum range of the planes and Spitfires were used in the first phase.

Yes all true but factors would seem to apply equally to all aircraft no? So as long as the comparison is made using the same cryteria they should be valid. And regardless both other types did fly those distances. One earlier and one a little later on so the often used quip about the p51 being the only plane the escort the bombers to Berlin and back is not true and a case of overrating at least as far as it pertains to that particular"fact" disclaimer: please see previous post

 

[DarrenW]

But again you are using planes from much later. Staying with a bomber formation flying at 150MPH considerably reduces the range. The maps with maximum radius of action ignore the fact that the escorts had to fly out to meet the bombers and then escort them. Compare the place that P-47s turned back on the Schweinfur-Revensburg raid with the actual maximum range of the planes and Spitfires were used in the first phase.

Sorry pbehn but it looks like we were thinking the exact same thing at the practically the same moment. I didn't mean to seem like a copy cat....

 

[pbehn]

Yes all true but factors would seem to apply equally to all aircraft no? So as long as the comparison is made using the same cryteria they should be valid. And regardless both other types did fly those distances. One earlier and one a little later on so the often used quip about the p51 being the only plane the escort the bombers to Berlin and back is not true and a case of overrating at least as far as it pertains to that particular"fact" disclaimer: please see previous post

No aeroplane escorted a bomber formation to Berlin and back, a raid to Berlin involved at least four and usually more waves of fighters. Bill Runnels posted here his longest mission was 11 hrs almost twice as long as a long mission for a p-51. Simply flying to Berlin and back wasn't the issue. Once in contact with the bombers the fighters had to maintain a speed that was economical but also fast enough to get into a fight and win, the speed of the aircraft was the ground speed of the bomber formation.

 

[DarrenW]

Yes all true but factors would seem to apply equally to all aircraft no? So as long as the comparison is made using the same cryteria they should be valid. And regardless both other types did fly those distances. One earlier and one a little later on so the often used quip about the p51 being the only plane the escort the bombers to Berlin and back is not true and a case of overrating at least as far as it pertains to that particular"fact" disclaimer: please see previous post

But Michael the Mustang's radius of action reached far beyond Berlin - it could stay with the bombers to the target, fight the Luftwaffe, and have enough gas to provide cover for the returning bombers back to England. The other two "options" couldn't and didn't.

 

[michael rauls]

I'm definitely not the brightest bulb on the tree when it comes to the ETO, but I'm learning much from everyone here who is far more knowledgeable on the subject than myself so please forgive my ignorance. I was always under the assumption that while the P-38 and later model P-47 could and did make it to Berlin and back, these were primarily fighter sweeps or missions involving bomber rendezvous over the target. The only fighter with the range to stay with the bombers the entire trip was the P-51. It could continuously weave and provide top cover for the bomber stream all the way in and all the way out, while the other fighters would run out of gas doing so. At least this was the case for most of 1944. Can someone please clarify this for me?

I believe you are correct when it comes to the p47 but not the p38 as once proper fuel management techniques were implemented ala Linberg, the p38 actually had a slightly longer range than the p51 so I have read. In my main source for statistics, Americas 100,000 it lists the p38s range as being slightly shorter. Not sure if this is pre or post fuel management technique change but in either case the p38 should have been able to and to the best of my knowledge did fly escort with the bombers all the way there and back to. The p47 may have had to do it in waves which would mean it would take more plans for the same effect but doesn't mean they could and later did provide cover all the way there and back.

 

[BiffF15]

Michael,

People might think you are in the Anti P51 camp as you have posted 12 out of the last 18 posts. You keep repeating your arguments without really adding a different perspective or offering compelling evidence why others are wrong or incorrect in their conclusion.

Think about agreeing to disagree and letting it go.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[DarrenW]

I believe you are correct when it comes to the p47 but not the p38 as once proper fuel management techniques were implemented ala Linberg, the p38 actually had a slightly longer range than the p51 so I have read. In my main source for statistics, Americas 100,000 it lists the p38s range as being slightly shorter. Not sure if this is pre or post fuel management technique change but in either case the p38 should have been able to and to the best of my knowledge did fly escort with the bombers all the way there and back to. The p47 may have had to do it in waves which would mean it would take more plans for the same effect but doesn't mean they could and later did provide cover all the way there and back.

Thanks Michael for the feedback. What was the speed and altitude that Lindbergh was specifying when he was able to extend the range of the P-38 beyond that of the P-51? I ask this because as pbehn stated earlier, to be an effective escort one must keep one's airspeed up in order to engage the enemy before they reach the bomber formations.

 

[fubar57]

It was more to do with RPMs and running in "Auto-lean"

"Lindbergh talked with MacDonald. The colonel then asked the group's pilots to assemble at the recreation hall that evening. The hall was that in name only, packed dirt floors staring up at a palm thatched roof, one ping pong table and some decks of cards completing the decor. Under the glare of unshaded bulbs, MacDonald got down to business. "Mr. Lindbergh" wanted to explain how to gain more range from the P-38s. In a pleasant manner Lindbergh explained cruise control techniques he had worked out for the Lightnings: reduce the standard 2,200 rpm to 1,600, set fuel mixtures to "auto-lean," and slightly increase manifold pressures. This, Lindbergh predicted, would stretch the Lightning's radius by 400 hundred miles, a nine-hour flight. When he concluded his talk half an hour later, the room was silent."
Charles Lindbergh and the 475th Fighter Group

I can't find the other website but I believe they were also told down to 160Kts from 180(?). Lindbergh said that the Pilot's Notes were wrong

 

[pbehn]

The p47 may have had to do it in waves which would mean it would take more plans for the same effect but doesn't mean they could and later did provide cover all the way there and back.

They all had to do it in waves, I doubt that one group of P51s could escort a bomber group much further than the German Border and back.

 

[michael rauls]

Michael,

People might think you are in the Anti P51 camp as you have posted 12 out of the last 18 posts. You keep repeating your arguments without really adding a different perspective or offering compelling evidence why others are wrong or incorrect in their conclusion.

Think about agreeing to disagree and letting it go.

Cheers,
Biff

The reason i keep repeating is that im trying to point out that the arguments on the other side so to speak I actually agree with at least for the most part but have nothing to do with my position. They are two different subjects. Perhaps you are right , i should just forget it . I guess i thought that by comming back to my p reasons for picking the p51 as most overrated while at the same time explaining i think it was a great plane( yes both are possible simultainiously)(thank god for that spell check again) i would make at least a few say" hay wait a minute, he also thinks the p51 is the best of the 3 majors " and " maybe he does have a point on the overrating thing" at least as it pertains to maybe one of those particular issues or if not at least a recognition that we are talking about 2 seperate issues that may seem in conflict on the surface but in fact can exist simultaneously. But alas, people are if nothing else tribal. That is they join groups and defend that groups position at all costs. I made every effort to see thngs from others point of view conceding and agreeing with there sats for rhe most part but pointing out thats different subject. At one point one person said well maybe you have a point when it comes to the range thing with the p38 out of all those posts. I thought people were starting to understand my position. Not that they necessarily agreed with it but at least were understading it was a completely separate issue from whether the p51 was overall the best of the 3 aircraft but of course that hope faded quickly. Last but not least I don't know why things need to be hostile. Acussing me of not using sources when I did and also said repeatedly i am all ears on opposing vews on my two reasons. Its all good, just seems lime this would be a bit more fun without that. And how about a sense of humor ? Anyone? My poor spelling alones gotta make you s lagh right? Away i tried. And yes as I have repeated countless times by now the p51 was a great plane. But thats not the subject of this thread is it ?

 

[michael rauls]

I should say i didn't mean everyone with oposing views. Just a few. Some have been quite cordial

 

[michael rauls]

They all had to do it in waves, I doubt that one group of P51s could escort a bomber group much further than the German Border and back.

Now theres something i didn't know. I thought only the p47 would have to do it in waves.

 

[michael rauls]

Thanks Michael for the feedback. What was the speed and altitude that Lindbergh was specifying when he was able to extend the range of the P-38 beyond that of the P-51? I ask this because as pbehn stated earlier, to be an effective escort one must keep one's airspeed up in order to engage the enemy before they reach the bomber formations.

That really is beyond my memory at the moment but i believe it was quite slow. Somebody else quoted 180 earlier and that sounds right to me but i cant sweer to it. Later I'll dig through Americas 100,000 and see if i can find the answer. Right now i have to go trim a tree before my wife comes home and realizes I've been on this website allday and haven't got anything done.

 

[pbehn]

Now theres something i didn't know. I thought only the p47 would have to do it in waves.

As I said on the Regensburg Schweinfurt mission Spitfires handed over to P47s which turned back over Eupen in Belgium. from wiki
The Schweinfurt task forces followed the same route as the Regensburg force. Because of the delayed start of the mission, eight squadrons of RAF Spitfire fighters (96 aircraft) from 11 Group and 83 Group had been added to escort the Schweinfurt force as far as Antwerp, where P-47s would take over and escort it to Eupen.[citation needed] The field order for the mission specified that the B-17s would fly at altitudes between 23,000 and 26,500 feet (7,000-8,000 m), but approaching the coast of the Netherlands at 13:30, it was confronted with developing cloud masses not present earlier in the day.[citation needed] The commander of the first task force estimated that the bombers would not be able to climb over the clouds and elected to fly under them at 17,000 feet (5,000 m), increasing the vulnerability of the bombers to fighter attacks.[citation needed]


. drgondog posted a typical mission profile years ago. Berlin required at least 4 possibly 5 waves from memory plus others to escort individual stragglers that had dropped out of formation. It wasn't a question of p-47s or p-38s or P51s they needed all of them and pilots too. This is why even when the P-51 was arriving they were still pushing to extend the range of others with internal and external fuel. There had to be massive safety margins built in. Sometimes the rendezvous was missed, sometimes the pilots were in combat longer than 15 minutes, sometimes the ground speed of the bombers going into a head wind was as low as 120MPH. The escorts had to stay with the bombers no matter what and that meant huge "contingency", despite this, reports of pilots landing exhausted with little more than fumes in the tank are common. I believe everyone here has been extremely cordial, but if you hadn't considered that the escorts operated in waves then maybe you could consider that it is a more complex issue than you thought. It is certainly not an issue of whether a plane could reach Berlin or not.

 

[michael rauls]

As I said on the Regensburg Schweinfurt mission Spitfires handed over to P47s which turned back over Eupen in Belgium. from wiki
The Schweinfurt task forces followed the same route as the Regensburg force. Because of the delayed start of the mission, eight squadrons of RAF Spitfire fighters (96 aircraft) from 11 Group and 83 Group had been added to escort the Schweinfurt force as far as Antwerp, where P-47s would take over and escort it to Eupen.[citation needed] The field order for the mission specified that the B-17s would fly at altitudes between 23,000 and 26,500 feet (7,000-8,000 m), but approaching the coast of the Netherlands at 13:30, it was confronted with developing cloud masses not present earlier in the day.[citation needed] The commander of the first task force estimated that the bombers would not be able to climb over the clouds and elected to fly under them at 17,000 feet (5,000 m), increasing the vulnerability of the bombers to fighter attacks.[citation needed]


. drgondog posted a typical mission profile years ago. Berlin required at least 4 possibly 5 waves from memory plus others to escort individual stragglers that had dropped out of formation. It wasn't a question of p-47s or p-38s or P51s they needed all of them and pilots too. This is why even when the P-51 was arriving they were still pushing to extend the range of others with internal and external fuel. There had to be massive safety margins built in. Sometimes the rendezvous was missed, sometimes the pilots were in combat longer than 15 minutes, sometimes the ground speed of the bombers going into a head wind was as low as 120MPH. The escorts had to stay with the bombers no matter what and that meant huge "contingency", despite this, reports of pilots landing exhausted with little more than fumes in the tank are common. I believe everyone here has been extremely cordial, but if you hadn't considered that the escorts operated in waves then maybe you could consider that it is a more complex issue than you thought. It is certainly not an issue of whether a plane could reach Berlin or not.

Thats all fascinating and i mean that. Some of that i knew and some I did not. But if the p38 had a slightly greater or slightly lesser range iether way then the statement the only plane that could...... Would still be......... an example of........ oh never mind. Anyone know where I can find a thread on the topic of most overrated aircraft?

 

[michael rauls]

And i really do have to go trim that tree now.

 

[DarrenW]

Now theres something i didn't know. I thought only the p47 would have to do it in waves.

You're not alone Michael, I've learned something new today as well....

 

[pbehn]

You're not alone Michael, I've learned something new today as well....

Another thing to consider with Berlin is a straight line from East Anglia to Berlin takes you nicely over many major cities and industrial areas in Netherlands and Germany all ringed by flak, as the ground forces advanced these gradually fell silent.